Nice -timely - poem Chris (and what a comment!)
You`re right, it is dogma. But the dogma today is evolution itself
When faced with the bewidering variety of life,
Science today eschews all mental strife,
Or segs on their eyeballs from looking for the (any!) missing link,
Or strains on their brains by leaving the box and endeavouring to think,
They lean on the `Elegant Theory` and tell us it all just `evolved`
SOLVED!
Comment is about Why does mankind wage war and kill? (blog)
Thank you Larisa for your comment on Just give me a cowboy poet.
Thanks Hazel
Comment is about Larisa Rzhepishevska (poet profile)
Original item by Larisa Rzhepishevska
<Deleted User> (6895)
Sat 12th Nov 2011 14:20
a very nice read Larisa.
thank you.
love
Stefan.xx
Comment is about Believe In Your Star (blog)
Original item by Larisa Rzhepishevska
Thx for reading and for all the feedback everyone- it is appreciated. It is a time of year that puts many things into perspective isn’t it? On which note the timing of the poems inclusion on the site was very much deliberate- well spotted Dave. Glad the poem worked for you. Skara Brae- would seem to be one of the few exceptions to the norm- if only mankind was different..
Stella- glad it works for you. Thx for the feedback. A lack of questioning- yes I think that is at the heart of the matter. I didn't originally write this with a view to the first or second world war. It was more a philosophical sigh at all wars and why we do what we do. It would be great if it became dated by mankinds future actions- but I can't see it somehow.
I wouldn't disagree with what Steve said (thx mate)- sometimes what you say is very much true and- such paradoxes do indeed exist. Thx for the time.
M. C- The rhythm of the poem is due to it being written in iambic tetrameter rhyming couplets- I'm glad you felt the form worked- thx. Laurence Binyon- really could write couldn't he. At the going down of the sun fame...indeed the poem from which that line relates offers a beautiful ideal. Hard to believe that the human mind can posses the ability to write like that- yet is also part of the struggle for survival and a part of nature in all its struggle (thx for the feedback.
Larisa- thx- 'So, wars will always be as long as mankind exists'- I think (sadly) that this is likely to be the case.
In terms of intention;
I find myself in the difficult position that many poets find themselves in, that poetry indeed often finds itself in, of only saying so much and implying the rest with a view to not being too prescribed. One person said that the poetry exists in the holes you leave behind for interpretation. Not sure I totally go along with that, but it does emphasise the importance of often not wishing to be too prescribed. So with that in mind should I now go on and say what the intention was/is in the poem?
I guess so. And with me that allways means war and peace as opposed here to just a question of war. I hope my explanation of the intention does not lessen the poem.
For my part I was/am not saying that war is good or war is bad or anything like that, that would be to have some form of child-like sticklebrick/lego, good versus bad black and white view of the world. I was simply asking the question- without loading in any morals.
The question, why does mankind wage war and kill? It is a very basic question, simple even. But this belies the enormity and complexity of potential answers, or in fact what needs to be considered, in order to come up with any form of answer. Just like, is there a God? The naïve sounding simplicity belies the fact that the question is far from easy to answer.
I do not attribute war to revenge, religion, leaders etc (sorry Dave).
mourning turns love lost - to blame,
and man repeats the vengeful game.
This is just a self evident truth that runs a course through the history of mankind at a personal level and the level of countries. It does not always occur, but it often occurs. But it is the working up to the answer, skating the question- not the answer that I was leading to.
For lessons missed in histories pay
for dogma we shall die today,
George Santayana once said ‘those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it’. I think there is a lot of truth in this. Unfortunately time and time again mankind ignores the lessons of the past, the lessons of history. Despite the fact that it is one of the very few tools he has when trying to predict the nature of his own actions and likely outcomes from his behaviour. History unfortunately, especially in wars, often does repeat itself.
for in our words and deeds we sow
a deathly seed we do not know
Not just in the deeds of war. But the rhetoric and deeds that allows the build up of positions, the polarisation of thoughts and creation of and mounting of dogma. The words and deeds prior to a war, aimed with intent that lead us to conflicts are all part of why we end up where we do (again skating the question).
So do we tar religions door
or those who send us off to war?
So do we? I ask the questions, but I do not come back to them, I do not answer them. Actually by not answering them and going in another direction, I hoped to answer them indirectly.
It is too easy to blame war simply on religion, even if religion has been a cause of war so have a lot of other things. As for our leaders, well, even in democracies the world over where the leaders have been democratically elected- we have still seen wars- plenty of them too. Elected leaders are just an extension of the people, with all their faults loaded in. They are people afterall. The point here is elected or unelected, wars occur. So again despite the fact that leader are sometimes the cause of wars, they are not ultimately the answer or reason for wars per se, it is an easy but unsatisfactory conclusions to say that leaders of nations are the cause of wars.
So the question remains?
Mans natal trait is to conform
he does as told from when he’s born
There is this idea that mans innate nature is awareness. I disagree. I think that Michael Crichton had it somewhat right when he said
‘Human beings never think for themselves, they find it too uncomfortable. For the most part, members of our species simply repeat what they are told-and become upset if they are exposed to any different view. The characteristic human trait is not awareness but conformity’
For most people I believe this is sadly true.
Believe it or not there is an evolutionary pressure towards conformity when it comes to group animals. It doesn’t matter whether you are an ape, a chimpanzee or a human. There is not enough time to have a discussion with the very young about the dangers they face coming into this world.
The young are told, they are chastised if they put there hand towards a fire or stand too close to the edge of a cliff. There simply isn’t the time to have a philosophical discussion as to why the young should not put their hand in the fire, or not stand on the edge of a cliff. Those that conformed survived and in far greater numbers, than those that did not- it really was that simple. Conformity, evolution towards behaviour that sustains the group is something that is a factual result, time and time again when looking at evolution.
So it should come as no surprise
that evolution is not wise.
The above is the natural follow on. We should not be surprised by conformity. It is an innate aspect of humanity. Do I blame evolution? Blame is a strange way of looking at it. Do I blame tigers for having stripes? I guess Tigers are at fault for more Tigers, but certainly they have little say in the fact that procreation results in offspring with stripes. That man conforms from when he’s born seems to me to be another self evident truth- like the stripes (dealing in generalities here- big ones that nevertheless are generally true).
Some religious people (I emphasise some) think that atheists wonder at evolution in the same way perhaps that they wonder about God. This is certainly not true, at least not in my experience. Most atheists marvel at aspects of evolution and nature, the laws of science etc. But most atheists also acknowledge the brutality of nature and evolution. One look at natural history shows a bloody struggle for life with over 90% of the species that have ever existed on this earth- now being extinct. And the driver of evolution- natural selection is in of itself a hard and bloody fight for life to this day right across the planet. It is this way and it’s always been this way. The point? Atheists do not typically posit nature or evolution in place of God as by way of something that we want- we just simple believe it to be true on the basis of evidence- mountains of evidence.
No right thinking/decent atheist would choose evolution or natural selection if it were in their power to simply choose a different nature of existence or way that the world could exist. It’s bloody (think red) and often horrible. It is evolution and natural selection that result in the endless struggle/arms race of parasites versus hosts and predator versus prey. It is why animals can get torn to pieces in the wild, it is why the guinea worm exists (go look up the guinea worm if you are not aware of it). It is why certain types of wasps sting caterpillars repeatedly, so they can lay their larvae inside them to eat them from the inside out while alive.
No right minded person would wish to choose the nature of existence as it appears.
But we don’t get a choice, it is what it is, in all the beauty and marvel of a blue whale and in all the brutality and pain I have detailed above.
So I blame evolution and I don’t blame it. I blame it, so I acknowledge its existence and I blame it in so much as I cite it as the reason for why we are what we are. But I do not blame it in so much as- evolution had no choice really either- it to is what it is.
Mankind for the most part conforms (key being most part), this stems from evolution and is evidenced throughout history, from warfare to psychology experiments.
A stone age mind we must obey
For dogma is - our dying way.
The point here was that, we have not evolved in a VERY long time and by that I mean to say the human brain. Stone age in this context was meant to hark back to the image of clubs, but also in general speech it has often been used as an invective/insult. I did not in this sense mean to literally refer to this period in history.
If we look all around us the world has changed beyond measure, in the last 50 years, and the 50 years before that- and has been doing so since the industrial revolution at least. But all of the changes, the inventions the technologies etc;
It is like we have created brilliant new software- think linux or some ultra efficient operating system- think wonderful new applications. But we are having to load up all that onto hardware ludicrously out of date- stone age hardware (again in the general- invective sense rather than literal).
Our brains are no different from that of our distant ancestors- no better, despite our technology, despite our age.
Religion, our leaders, pride, resources….whatever any one of hundreds of things are not the ultimate answer to the question.
Mankind conforms, his innate nature is to create and build dogma.
Who is at fault, who did conspire?
That was a line- set up to a false and simple premise in the middle of the poem- a question that itself was false.
To highlight the way mankind likes simple answers- likes easy simple human targets.
Why does mankind wage war and kill?
Why does a Tiger have stripes?
P.S
If you got to the end of my turgid spiel- well done. I apologise for it.
Comment is about Why does mankind wage war and kill? (blog)
good stuff, dave as always.. really enjoyed the full of it - keep em coming.. hope you are good
Comment is about Hippies (blog)
Original item by Dave Bradley
good stuff, terry.. different from the last poem or two of yours i have read and i can't get a Bukowski reference this time either..
top writing
Comment is about A Mother's Decision (blog)
top stuff, steve.. one of your best m8.
hope you manage to write loads in leeds
Comment is about The reception (blog)
Original item by Steve O'Connor
christmas certainly does earlier and earlier every year, stella.
love the last few stanzas here in particular but it's excellent stuff throughout xx
Comment is about Christmas Comes Early (blog)
beauitfully wrote, Indigo... maybe a little long but since i know you and know what has inspired you in it, i can't fault you as it's wrote so beauitfully from the heart.. keep em coming buddy
Comment is about Home (blog)
Original item by Ushiku Crisafulli
like my words fail to spill here, my dear in particular but thoughthful little thing x
Comment is about Short but not so sweet. (blog)
clever, laura, clever.. well impressed.. x
Comment is about Biblical Imbecility (blog)
Original item by Laura Taylor
made me smile, cynthia - perfect for a saturday morning read x
Comment is about The Big Hill (blog)
Original item by Cynthia Buell Thomas
good stuff, i'm with rachel - i can relate to the first two verses / stanzas perfectly.
you may find the last line may have a extra beat in it - perhaps rewording it a little to remove a few words, but either way i enjoyed it.. keep em coming x
Comment is about You (blog)
Original item by Teju Chosen Poet
"Why does mankind wage war and kill?" - Because of greediness. And the people in that village had no evidence of warfare in this 5000 year old community because (it's only my opinion) they are not greedy.
It's only one reason. There are so many others.
So, wars will always be as long as mankind exists.
Very strong poem. I like it so much.
Best wishes, Larisa
Comment is about Why does mankind wage war and kill? (blog)
Beautiful poem! Love it.
Comment is about JUST GIVE ME A COWBOY POET (blog)
'[you] draw square circles and rectangles that are round' great.
the first two verses could describe me easily.
'you my doubt, my contradictions, my insecurity and fear'...do you think that if they gone theyll take these with them?
Comment is about You (blog)
Original item by Teju Chosen Poet
steve mellor
Fri 11th Nov 2011 20:32
makes you think doesn't it (and i suppose that's what it's all about)
it may not be too long before we're hearing an 'excuse me' from communities rather than the odd individual.
thinking about it, perhaps it's already happening
Comment is about BEGGAR MY NEIGHBOUR (blog)
Original item by M.C. Newberry
This reads as well as it performs Chris. The time of posting is perfect. A two minute read, posted at 10.58 on the 11th November.
You attribute war to different causes - revenge, dogma, religion, conformity, evolution. There are a few others, principally economic pressure in its many forms. Solving problems by violence does indeed seem stone age, and much of the stone age must have been like that. However, on visiting Skara Brae in the Orkneys - Europe's oldest intact village - it was surprising to be told that there was no evidence of warfare in this 5000 year old community. They probably had found a way of talking to each other, something some of our generation could do with
Comment is about Why does mankind wage war and kill? (blog)
Anything which celebrates hills is good for me, but particularly enjoyed this Cynthia. Neat play on Matt 9:17
Comment is about The Big Hill (blog)
Original item by Cynthia Buell Thomas
I enjoyed this too, Cynthia, agree with Laura. :)
Comment is about The Big Hill (blog)
Original item by Cynthia Buell Thomas
Yoo hoooooo. Would you be the same Johnny Rodgers who performed at the Tudor last night? Welcome to WOL and to the Tudor. There is a Tudor friends group you can join on here also. I think there are only about 4 peeps in it despite it being one of the best attended venues in the North West :) You will probably find a link to it on John Togher's page. x
Comment is about Jonny Rodgers (poet profile)
Original item by Jonny Rodgers
<Deleted User> (6315)
Fri 11th Nov 2011 16:47
I do enjoy this piece Chris you raise questions that I think many of us ask about how we follow with little questioning..I like what Steve said too..especially in the light of Tunisia etc..seems conflict had to come sometimes to ensure a hopeful future..
I find this piece of yours timeless Chris..great work.. :)
Comment is about Why does mankind wage war and kill? (blog)
<Deleted User> (6315)
Fri 11th Nov 2011 16:40
ah..yes I would think many know of this feeling.
Comment is about BEGGAR MY NEIGHBOUR (blog)
Original item by M.C. Newberry
Hi Darren
Just wondered why you were posting your poems in the discussion forums, rather than as blogs? When you log in, there's a link at the top right hand of the page saying 'make blog entry' :)
Comment is about Darren Whitehead (poet profile)
Original item by Darren Whitehead
I listened after reading and was impressed by
your heartfelt performance; and I thought the
rhythm employed was ideally suited to the material.
Comment is about Why does mankind wage war and kill? (blog)
I suppose mankind has been asking the question
and never finding the answer - except that I go
along with Steve's "paradoxical" observation...
captured in some lines from a favourite poem
"The Burning of the Leaves" by Laurence Binyon
(he of the famous "At the going down of the sun...") - and I quote:
"They will come again, the leaf and flower, to
arise
From squalor of rottenness into the old splendour..."
War can have the same result.
Comment is about Why does mankind wage war and kill? (blog)
You tackle serious themes really well, Chris.
In response to the theme raised here, I would simply like to posit my belief that it is a paradoxical but profound truth that humans, sometimes, really have to go to war in order to build peace and justice.
Comment is about Why does mankind wage war and kill? (blog)
Reading this today, the 11th, seemed fitting, yet still unfitting, as I think your poem reminds us - we just don't always get our thoughts to 'fit' the world's pain. This poem connects whilst teling us of our disconnection with others/events. I'm sorry I didn't get the chance to hear you perform it.
Comment is about Christmas Comes Early (blog)
My GOD!!!! Where the heck did this hideous photo get taken???!!! Jeez, it doesn't flatter me whatosever. Thanks Winston, it will do for now until I can find a more flattering photo - oh, and add a sample of my work too.
Comment is about Robert Goodier (poet profile)
Original item by Robert Goodier
<Deleted User> (7075)
Fri 11th Nov 2011 09:38
Hi there, Welcome to Write Out Loud. Winston
Comment is about Teju Chosen Poet (poet profile)
Original item by Teju Chosen Poet
Philipos
Thu 10th Nov 2011 21:53
Climbing mountains is always a challenging experience and helps us to view the world through other eyes. No enthusiasm is greater than a child's.
Nice one Cynthia you took us on the ascent.
Comment is about The Big Hill (blog)
Original item by Cynthia Buell Thomas
Wow! Thank you for responding. I'm inclined to agree with the both of you. In our more tentative days we went down the chapbook path; it was a very good way of testing the market on the universality of our poetry. Certainly, a £15 chapbook really appears to be over the top - I would demur from buying anything over £5. We recently started doing poet's chapbooks under our Spoken Word open mike imprint and we are sticking at £3.50.
There is a certain circularity about books primarally targetted at other poets and we certainly notice a bit of home market saturation. One challenge is to get the attention of new readers - we try, though it is often only one new reader at a time.
MCN's point is well made: in classical music there is a definate move back to a diatonic scale, albeit presented in a modern fashion; and poetry too needs to ensure there is an universal appeal. Sadly, school poetry has ruined many people's palatte and I see too many poems that try to rhyme and are incredibly dire or try to be modern but the poet has no ear for metre and rythm and the result trippeth not off the tongue.
Our approach is to identify good poets that seem to appeal to our open mike listeners and then nurture them before finally making sure they have a really well made book that can retail around £6.50 to £8 and pay for the printing. This model works well and all our books have been sucessful - even to the point that we're doing reprints.
I'll return to pricing in another blog in a week or two.
Comment is about Neophyte (blog)
Original item by Alan Gillott
Hi Marianne
Still writing old fasioned sloppy stuff occasionally. Win x
Comment is about Marianne Daniels (poet profile)
Original item by Marianne Daniels
Hello Cynthia. Just found your poetry and had an enjoyable and thoughtful time reading it.
Comment is about Cynthia Buell Thomas (poet profile)
Original item by Cynthia Buell Thomas
Several points/issues are raised in your comments, and they all interest me. About the 'blogs' and what triggers reader interest, I think it is foremost the title and the first line 'hook', or at most the first three lines clearly seen in the blog box. Also familiarity with, and respect for, the writer plays a big part; you come to expect something worth reading, even if off to a slowish start.
The issue of on-line publishing cancelling competitive opportunities is a real problem. I've almost ceased to care about the competitions where that is a rule. It's a sticky topic. Working only on-line exposes only those readers who personally communicate. Who knows how many others read your output? This is exactly like having a book published, of course, but silver may have crossed palms to make the uncertainty more palatable. Or does it really?
There is an avalanche of small poetry 'chapbooks' in the limited market, even locally, costing anywhere from a fiver to fifteen pounds. In one book I calculated the cost per word, a stupid, pointless thing to do, but I had been expecting more poems for my money and this activity watered down my ire (laughing at my own idiocy.) My shelves are bulging with 'little books' and I am discouraged about buying more regardless of the demonstrated talent, or critical hype in advance. I am interested in anthologies, but only if the poets included have a sufficient number of poems for the reader to really 'get a voice', no fewer that ten per writer.
I'm writing rather hurriedly; so please bear with errors in structure or spelling. I did think 'neophyte' was funny, considering the background then shared.
Comment is about Neophyte (blog)
Original item by Alan Gillott
I found the points raised and the problems
met both interesting and stimulating. Of course, the "net" is a voracious thing and one
has to weigh up the advantages of its huge
potential "readership" with the difficulties
met with events and outlets like competitions.
I have had stuff published in hard copy (both paid and at my own expense) and it is always a question of intent and ambition.
I tend of think along the lines of "poems get
remembered; novels get remaindered." - but each
to his/her own. Lastly, I find that the poetry
press can be somewhat self-defeating, with its
narrow "modernist" approach, forgetting or
ignoring the reality that whilst it may be
fashionable and P.C. to deride the likes of
Kipling, the fact remains that such work finds
a popular response amongst the wider public,
and it should send out a message that his poem "IF" was voted the nation's favourite.
As with much modern classical music, the
mechanics appear to have been allowed to achieve precedence over the content and its connection with our humanity. Obscurity isn't
much good if the message is lost in the telling. In this corresponding musical sense -
simply put, the "tune" (itself something of a rarity nowadays) is now subservient to how
tricks can be played with it; if, indeed a tune appears in the first place.
A hymn like "Abide With Me" has a fine lyric
AND a simple but memorable melody. Both give it huge emotional power. It needs nothing more.
Comment is about Neophyte (blog)
Original item by Alan Gillott
Awww - what a lovely piece. I love the vinegar to wine and in the 'old bag' - funny, clever, and poignant :)
Comment is about The Big Hill (blog)
Original item by Cynthia Buell Thomas
<Deleted User> (7212)
Thu 10th Nov 2011 14:52
haha - it says more about you than me ;)
(kissing gate)
Comment is about Laura Taylor (poet profile)
Original item by Laura Taylor
Haha Houston - funny description there! Must admit, I had to turn it off myself within about 60 seconds! :D
Comment is about Winston Plowes (poet profile)
Original item by Winston Plowes
On a friend's Honda 90, going base over apex over the handlebars because I had not realised there was also a back brake put me off a little. Though I once borrowed a pal's Suzuki 500 - no licence for it - and was lucky enough to pass the most 'difficult' pupil in the school where I taught. Lucky because he was so impressed (he thought I was a biker; I was actually only just keeping it under control) he was good as gold for me at school thereafter.
Comment is about BSA Bantam (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
<Deleted User> (9801)
Thu 10th Nov 2011 14:16
Hi Tom, Its the Iris for me but I do like lilies too. I had never heard of the NYTC till now that is! just had a quick listen to intercontinental track drift though. I think my cats run them a close second if you threw them into a small room full of musical intruments and scatterd a few flakes of tuna around the place. H
Comment is about Laura Taylor (poet profile)
Original item by Laura Taylor
Enjoyed this - very strong, and the caged bird idea turned on its head - clever
Comment is about You in the gilded cage (blog)
Original item by Steven Kenny
Yeh, sorry - tried to add a voice recording but I can't seem to convert my amr file to an mp3 goddammit.
Anyhow, the 'idolater' should rhyme with 'revelations' and magog has a flat 'a'.
There, that makes it MUCH more understandable eh?!
I guess there is only a very limited amount of people who will 'get' this - but it amused me anyway ;D
Comment is about Biblical Imbecility (blog)
Original item by Laura Taylor
steve mellor
Thu 10th Nov 2011 08:27
as ever, i'm somewhat lost, but put me down for being on your side Laura
hold on a minute, i think someone's knocking at my door ...
i've just been offered a free trip to one of the four corners of the earth
temptation!!
Comment is about Biblical Imbecility (blog)
Original item by Laura Taylor
great idea kenny, well written x
Comment is about You in the gilded cage (blog)
Original item by Steven Kenny
<Deleted User> (9635)
Wed 9th Nov 2011 23:54
really enjoyed this ray
Comment is about The Pits (blog)
<Deleted User> (6315)
Wed 9th Nov 2011 23:47
I enjoyed this read thanks..the metaphor is strong for me :)
Comment is about You in the gilded cage (blog)
Original item by Steven Kenny
Rachel Bond
Sat 12th Nov 2011 14:47
nice coat :D
Comment is about Laura, Wigan Tudor. November 2011 (photo)