I have to agree with most of what Chris has written, especially in the first of his long posts. A civilised country has a decent benefits system. That is fundamental and something that has (mostly) characterised the UK over past decades. Now our minds are being steadily, subtly poisoned (by the rich!!!) so that 'benefits' are thought of as a bad thing and benefit claimants as ungrateful scroungers. Meanwhile the benefits regime is being undermined and claimants treated in disgraceful, punitive ways. I'm not a claimant myself, so there's no self-interest, but my wife volunteers in a CAB and the stories of people being left with nothing to live on would make you weep.
If anyone wants to look further into what's actually going on in this country - http://www.scriptonitedaily.com/2013/04/08/scroungers-how-much-does-the-corporate-welfare-state-cost-the-tax-payer/
I wonder how grateful the rich are for the vast amounts they are abstracting from our economy?
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Fitzroy , i found this very interesting and i look forward to reading more of your work
Comment is about River (blog)
Original item by fitzroy herbert
great discussion and argument and counter argument on this thread boys and girls - irrespective of which side your socialist BREAD IS BUTTERED (OR NOT - SEE WHAT I DID THERE?) THEN POETRY NEEDS THIS TYPE OF DEBATE. sorry slipped into caps and can't be arsed retyping - lazy, socialist, b'stard that I am :-)
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Happy to take on board all views, Chris. We are "a broad church".
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
I've certainly been rejected by most, and I won't howl for my failures, but few magazines hold my interest. Editors sometimes declare their preferences, and sometimes not: there is a grim satisfaction in finding passages of poems and criticism, that consistently fail to give me any pleasure. When I do find something appealing I dip my hand into my pocket for a subscription. Let the others sink. So it would be interesting to hear what the boys from Poetry Review, Poetry London have to say: for at the moment my subscriptions stand at Zero.
Comment is about Top poetry magazine editors explain 'the art of choosing' (article)
Original item by Greg Freeman
All I can say John is that from what you have said both in the poem and in the subsequent discussion this is the only conclusion that I could reach in terms of parable.
If I am mistaken, then please forgive me.
What leads me to think as I do?
A poem that if not taken literally points to an idea of entitlement. You yourself said that gratitude had been replaced by entitlement, and quite clearly in connection with socialism, saying that was not your concept of socialism.
You went further and stated quite clearly that you believed socialism was a fair days pay for a fair days work, given this, in conjunction with the above what else are we supposed to think?
It seemed fairly obvious that you were attacking entitlement in the context of not working, which. I took to mean either or both - those on the dole or disability.
Again, If I am mistaken, forgive me, I apologise.
You must though surely see how I, Laura, and Ian would feel this way? Only you know what you meant, on which note I think you would need to elucidate.
Well it would be helpful in terms of discussion. If you do not wish to of course then that's for you (but then it makes it harder to be surprised, when people misunderstand you).
I still don't think the insistence on people answering the question works;
The who should pay the 5 ducats I mean...
at the very least there clearly must be too much ambiguity, too much room to interpret this in an entirely differing way, as myself, Laura and Ian all disagreed with you or at least the parable, interpreting the issue in a relatively similar way. To each other.
Any which way John, the discussion has been interesting. Free speech is a must, and that includes responses as well as original articles and poems.
Best of Chris
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Chris, Wow! Everyone seems to have strong opinions on something I've not said.
As I said in a much earlier response, I've read in many discussions on WOL the view that once a piece is printed ownership transfers to the reader.
If that is the case I'm happy for everyone to have their view. Wheelbarrows and chickens.
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Ive been in the same situation lots of times. Nice write :D
Comment is about Light or dark (blog)
Tonight was just great - thanks.
Well worth a 30-mile round trip on a wet winters evening.
Such a great mix of material, smoothly run and a friendly room to boot.
Review is about Red Shed Readings on 6 Feb 2014 (event)
Comment is about My Hero (blog)
Original item by tina
Perhaps you could help, though. Who should pay the missing 5 ducats?
The problem is the problem your question raises John ;)
If your scenario is literal and not a parable then our answer is simple - the son.
But we both know that you wish this to be a parable.
The problem lies herein. Your scenario or parable does not correlate with the situation that you would like it to correlate with. I thought that would appear clear enough following my prior post?
You're clearly connecting this with jobseekers and disabled claimants, that is your attempted parable, but it doesn't work. It fails for the reasons I have stated.
I have given you an answer to your literal story.
No logical answer can be reached in terms of using it as a parable, Not in the context you have alluded to, so unfortunately I cannot furnish you with one - an answer that is.
The answer that you are trying to lead people into is obvious, that like the literal, if used as a parable, the son is at fault. I utterly reject that as an illogical outcome/response.
The scenario that which is literal does not correlate with that of the claimed parable.
If you doubt this, I can if you like concoct a whole string of inappropriate parables that do example this. I can offer a whole string of stories where in the literal sense we have an obvious answer that can then not be used as a wider parallel that I can suggest.
P.S
And there's still nothing but nobility in the idea of a fair days work for a fair days pay. I do however worry John that somewhere along the line, in with the right ideas you've got a little lost.
Quote
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”
Malcolm X
To add, may people would argue that redistributive taxation is handing money to ingrates. The same logic applies. If you think this is true then you're many things, but one of them is NOT a socialist.
If you do not think redistributive taxation is ingrates claiming money, then. I fail to see how used as a parable - your story fits into your thinking.
Surely you either - believe both the story as parable and think redistributive taxation is of the very same, or you do not accept your story as a parable and accept redistributive taxation.
In one sense, this should raise questions for you John, are you really a socialist? If you are, and you might well be, maybe you need to consider this logical inconsistency?
Opinions opinions hehe
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Thu 6th Feb 2014 18:00
I have! It is! A blues in E. But I wouldn't inflict my version of it on any audience unless a gun was held to my head. You should consider yourselves lucky...F
Comment is about Train of Thieves (blog)
Original item by fitzroy herbert
And here are the results for this one http://magmapoetry.com/magma-competition/
Comment is about Philip Gross to judge £1,000 Magma poetry competition (article)
Original item by Greg Freeman
Whoa, Chris! Plenty to chew on there.
Your thoughts are longer than my parable.
Perhaps you could help, though. Who should pay the missing 5 ducats? Do I have an entitlement to them? Am I entitled to be ungrateful?
I should add in the last comment I have got my ablative wrapped around my nominative. It should have been "Multum in Parvo".
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Seems to me the issue is one of context.
If this really is one person to another, a literal father and son or like relationship, then, unless we create some justifying backstory - of course the son is an ingrate! But then this wouldn't be a parable would it...
However...
If as a parable this is meant to relate to the current hot political potato of benefits and the welfare system, I would think the parable falls down and fails on a number of levels, for if that was the case;
a) the system is one of insurance, not handouts. Everyone pays in when they work, so that when hard times come knocking they can receive in the absence of work. If there was no possibility of this - why would anyone pay in, in the first place?
In other words the son would have paid the father for a long time and then, in effect would have been due his 10 ducats a day. To not pay them the father would be a thief!
b) I think the British system has been built in a certain way with a view to equity and the wish to try and create an equitable society. We all, democratically decided a long time ago that those people more unfortunate than ourselves should be afforded a life and not left to the wolves. People who are disabled that cannot work would go to the wall, or the wolves, whichever term you wish, if it wasn't for a system that we have that doesn't allow for this. The system does indeed entitle, just as the NHS entitles us all to free health care at the point of use. Society pays a monetary price for high ideals. If we didn't pay this price, we would lose our humanity and the value of that is greater!
In this case the money given to the son would not be the fathers, rather it would have been handed to the father by the village to care for his son and the son would indeed be entitled to the money. The village would gain much from this.
If anyone doubts the societal gains from a) and b), then I would invite them to compare the respective societies or villages of the USA and Britain. One has ghettoisation of the poor, and a much higher level of violent crime - most of which stems from a much, much more significant drugs and gang culture. That drugs and gang culture are intertwined and represent crude replacements of salary/funds and insurance/family.
Worth noting John;
A fair days work for a fair days pay is noble. However, what if there is no work John, or what if the person cannot work?
Key questions, don't you think?
P.S
Looking to the basic premise/analogy of a father and son; In this case, I don't think it matters where the father got the his money from, that is a legal issue only, not a moral one. So in that situation the son would not be entitled to it, no matter what the moral situation. If we argued otherwise the entire political system would fall apart and their would be blood in the streets.
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
It is tempting to wonder if, when your poems are rejected by such magazines, that you are perhaps the victim of an establishment conspiracy to exclude outsiders. I've had poems returned from Poetry Review and The Rialto, and the thought did cross my mind momentarily on both occasions. But then I concluded, more reasonably, that the poems were just nowhere near good enough. There has to be a selection process. I carry on trying to improve them. I haven't submitted to these magazines again. Yet.
Comment is about Top poetry magazine editors explain 'the art of choosing' (article)
Original item by Greg Freeman
Yes, that´s an ongoing emotion, unfortunately. ;)
Comment is about Rage (blog)
Original item by Karin
Thank you guys, appreciated.
..and thank you for reminding me to come back and plonk the actual gate I had in mind on..the rest of course is pure fantasy!
Comment is about The Kissing Gate (blog)
Original item by Christopher Dawson
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:52
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:44
we will investigate!xx
Comment is about Of Lilith and Anthony - front cover preview... (blog)
Original item by Katy Megan
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:41
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:40
we agree with Wayne-nice to see you back on.xx
Comment is about No finish line (blog)
Original item by Noris Roberts
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:36
your work never fails to please Tom.xx
Comment is about See What Thinking Brings (blog)
Original item by Tom
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:36
your work never fails to please Tom.xx
Comment is about See What Thinking Brings (blog)
Original item by Tom
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:34
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:32
lovely poem Steve.Hope it aint personal.xx
Comment is about The coldest Morning (blog)
Original item by Steve Higgins
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:29
'a waiting room of foreboding menace'
encapsulates the ongoing threat.xx
Comment is about Rage (blog)
Original item by Karin
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:25
you should have set this to music Fitzroy.xx
Comment is about Train of Thieves (blog)
Original item by fitzroy herbert
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:23
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:19
very likeable poem guys.xx
Comment is about Human Warranty (blog)
Original item by Joseph J. Breunig 3rd
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:16
Welcome Gary.Nice poem.xx
Comment is about Capture your beauty (blog)
On another front this little piece and the response it's generated reminds me of the phrase "Multo in Parvo" - the motto for Rutland.
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Interesting dimension, Dave. Who should be the arbiter of whether the father obtained his money fairly?
Of course, my piece doesn't say how he got it. Perhaps he stole it, perhaps it was his life's hard-earned savings, perhaps it was small change to him, perhaps it was every ducat he had. I haven't said.
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
A very provocative piece John. I'd like to know where the father got his apparently abundant ducats from. If the response is that that doesn't matter, I'd say it matters a lot. There's far too many people in the modern world who got their wealth NOT by a fair day's work for a fair day's pay but by predatory raids on markets, at the expense of ordinary people, with the profits tucked away in tax havens.
If the father got his pile that way, then he himself is an ingrate and worse. But if he worked for it and gave good value, good luck to him. Obviously, he can do what he likes with it. Dylan wrote a song in favour of generosity - 'Do Unto Others' but it has the line "Don't wanna be used by nobody for a doormat". There's a balance to be struck.
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
I'm really quite flattered by this little piece. I've never had so much fanmail.
And you are quite right Laura, I used to dribble in my infancy and I dribble now in my dotage.
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Suspect what you fancy dear john, and make of it what you will. I'm not sure exactly why we're discussing who to give 5 ducats to, when my original questions asked nowt of the sort. Swerve and twist - you must be a good dribbler!
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Hello Laura, there you are. If you look 3 or 4 postings back you'll see I explained who it was aimed it. I suspect you're rather wanting me to give an answer you don't like. That is quite odd, isn't it?
The answer to the question about who should pay the missing 5 quid does seem a bit of a poser though, doesn't it?
MC favours I find the 5 quid myself and that is indeed one solution I can live with. How about you?
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Thank you for your comments and advice, grammar has never been my strong point, I will heed your advice, I will donate the poem if they will accept it.
Once again
Thanks
Gary.
Comment is about We are blessed (blog)
Sharp and poignant - with the painful realisation
brought home in the final lines of the story
behind the "movements, slow, deliberate".
Comment is about Frank (blog)
Original item by John E Marks
A consistently pleasing hymn of praise to God's
heaven on Earth. It would be a fine addition to
any child's book on the wonders of Creation.
There are a few spelling "blips"...and I would
have been tempted to avoid "does turn to grey"
in favour of something like "dons shades of grey"
in line 1.
Comment is about We are blessed (blog)
The late great Johnny Cash (whose photo you use)
and Pete Seeger were at the forefront of their
musical times - both going their own way and
leaving us with so much worth celebrating.
This post is a timely tribute to PS's passing.
"Where have all the flowers gone
Long time passing..."
Timeless and touching!
I wrote some lines about the death of JC and
this may prod me towards posting them sometime.
Comment is about Walkin' Man (blog)
Original item by Ian Whiteley
My own "reading" is that we should be grateful
for what we receive from others - and if that
changes and makes us discontented, it is open
to us to help ourselves achieve our expectations.
But that's how I understand this...not that I
expect others to agree with my interpretation.
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
leah
Wed 5th Feb 2014 14:00
NEW PERFORMER STARTS NEW YEAR!
The start of the new year brought in new performer, Steve Pottinger..Although a first timer with Write Angle, Steve's published three poetry books, co-written the best-selling autobiographies of two leading members of UK punk scene (Steve Ignorant of Crass, and Ross Lomas of GBH). He's a regular at Blackpool's Rebellion punk festival at the Spoken Word Stage of Rebellions, and performs round the circuit..His layed back style is strong, confident and theatrical. It's so gentle, it's like hearing love poems but don't be fooled. He's a rebel who 'speaks softly but carries a strong word'!
His poems and stories flow together. He's a great raconteur, combining humour with cynicism. 'Thirteenth Floor', inspired while he worked for the homeless, descibes a 'down and outer' who, after 'all he's been through', still maintains his innocense against all odds. Steve hopes social services won't destroy him. He tells of the hen party in his railcar when he hadn't slept for days – how they endless shrieked but had so much fun, he found himself laughing, and how important laughing is. Another, 'Beryl's Laugh', ...in a cafe,..formica tables, mothers barely more than girls, arthritic men, Beryl laughs down a benediction..and for a moment, unpaid bills are forgotten...
Some know what they want to be when they grow up. Steve 'never had a clue.. still doesn't'! He wants to travel, see the world, meet people etc. His poem, 'Key City', based on his home, Warsaw, in the West Midlands – where all keys and locks were originally made – a city of 250,000 people, once thriving with factories, forges, fires, furnaces - ' now on its arse', full of charity shops. He also tells of his dad , a GP, and where once existed 'identity, pride and dignity', it's now gone. His poem 'Bongo Bongo Man' tells of how when angry and pissed – you blame the Bongos – 'Hate isn't the problem. It's greed'. He spoke of Blackpool, where his grandad lived and which he visited after his death. How it has no pretensions. It is what it is. Set on seafronts. Very picturesque.
Steve's philosophy comes through every poem. His one love poem, written so he'd have 'one token love poem', reeks cynical. It won't last. It can't. 'Tumbling Stumbling'..compares to a grand piano and an elephant which ends up breaking it. 'Then, 'The Day They Elected Wilco Johnson (guitarist) President'- a tribute to a man who had cancer. 'We're all just feathers blowing in the wind' but wasn't going to spend time in hospital but just went on performing! In 'The Punk Ethic', he says, 'do what you want to do'. On Edward Snowden, the first three days he was missing – he woke up in a street full of strangers. Everyone around could be FBI. 'Right now he's in the spare room with digestives and some tea. But if anyone asks, you never heard it from me'. I can go on and on. Orkney, which he describes with much love. His grandad grew up there. 'Did you ever go to a place you'd never been but felt you were at home'. In 'Dry Land Drowning', he spoke to a South African, asking how she got there. 'I came by Barnsley'. Steve found out her dad ran a pirate anti-apartheid radio programme. In spite of being called an 'angry man', Steve sees the good in the world. A wonderful entertainer and much appreciated, by the response of the audience!
At the Open Mic, newcomer Mark Arnold did his own political rant. 'Up the Flagpole'. Then, 'Life is like a cigarette'. (We hope he returns). David Roberts did 'Butterflies', a lovely descriptive poem. Of two lovers parting. 'At the last supper at the last hour...' Sven Stears – a takeoff on poems with long titles and short (two words) poems. He did 'Hound' - 'he bit your wrists'. 'Treading on water is the same as drowning', and 'The Dog House- a good place to be'. Finally, 'Harmonica.' First time he played. The poem so aptly describes the parts of the harmonica. Excellent!. The casing made of a stone. It hides reeds made of bone, and the frame of a death machine. The wood of a guillotine (Sven's got talent! - we hope he makes it!)
Chris Sangster did 'Greyhound Angel'. A tribute to a stranger who helped someone who couldn't get money, was hungry, tired and couldn't call home. Also a poem about Orkney, (highly descriptive). 'We who come in the footsteps of ancestors'. Then, 'Don't Mistake the Weather for the Sky', a poem that inspires. Maria Hewitt did 'The Ant Queen', afterward asking what it was that damaged it. (we won't give it away). Then, about her dog. 'A friendly dog can be dense'. Finally, 'That Rocket'. Is it not cosmic intrusion (interesting idea). Finally, 'Star Sign'. Stars signalling in morse code, their 'search for peace'. Dave Allen's 'I Could Have Sworn I Deleted Her Number'. -'each time I called her, I didn't do it. My dick did!' (clever man with words). 'Then I was between do and don't. Hey, don't forget, you're still facebook friends'! His second poem 'My Backpack rests against my back. She's late...next installment next month – if you liked it. (The audience loved it)! JeanAnne Naumcyzk did 'Cruise on QE', describing the ship with its shops, entertainment. Then, 'Why Green Still', no snow, more rain. Seasons mingle into one. Will the sun become our winter friend?' Finally 'Sparkle', what remains after Christmas, birthdays are gone.
The ever amazing Audi Maserati tuning his uke 'like tuning a sitar', did a song about 'yesterday is history', about a cowboy who 'stopped killing folks for fun' after meeting 'that girl' 'when the theatre came to town'. He resents people who spend '£10,000 to throw a party for a socialite when it only costs £10 for a mosquito net.' Another song about an 'internationally recognised playgirl, given plastic surgery, ending with 'her disconnected perfumed feet'. His song, 'Hi Honey, I'm home' was lovely, sad and 'too real'. 'Nothing went right for me. I feel like the whole world is crushing in on me,..Hi Honey, I'm home'. Then, 'The Ballad of Vince and Shane'. - love for a dog. Jack Warshaw sang about Greenwich Village in the 60s. Then a softer song, Passing Through, Passing Through', in which everyone joined in. Tricia Cane read 'I sit by your side' about a harmonious love that can't last. Then a poem describing the morning sun. Finally, 'On Driving Safely'.
Gilly, an audience favourite, read love poems, 'To Womankind' – explaining the power they don't realise they have. A second poem had 'I possess the world in you and you possess my heart'. 'Encore!' was heard as he left the stage. They love him!
All in all, a very enjoyable evening and a good start to the new year! We hope it all goes as well as January did! And we hope to see you all next month when Steve Tasane, a 'favourite', takes over the mike! And of course, the open mikers.
And our restaurant, meal for two freebie, was Fez – the best Turkish restaurant in town!
Review is about WRITE ANGLE POETRY & MUSIC +OPEN MIC on 21 Jan 2014 (event)
Who should pay them? In the poem they are being given. There is a distinction. Anyway, as I said, it's up to you if you want to swerve it.
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
you're very kind john - the story about the name in it is totally true - I have no idea where it came from - I looked up both words to see if it made any sense - and it kinda does. spooky. I was thinking 'the ghost of tom joad' (springsteen) when I hear it in my head - I'm a massive fan of 'the boss' and he's just released an electric version of that track on his new album - which is great - but I prefer the haunting acoustic original.
Comment is about John Coopey (poet profile)
Original item by John Coopey
John Coopey
Fri 7th Feb 2014 17:08
Interesting observations everyone makes, guys.
But here's another thought prompted by what some of you have blogged.
Supposing if (just supposing) my thoughts on benefits (which some of you have determined this piece is about) were that society has an obligation to provide for its most vulnerable - those who through no fault of their own cannot provide for themselves (the sick, disabled, unemployed etc) but that it has no obligation to those who can but don't...
...is my socialism compromised by this view or is it still in tact?
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey