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winston plowes

Wed 5th Jan 2011 15:50

Also loved the 'diluting' title but would work better if there was a little more red in the plastic cup. Win

Comment is about ros/e (blog)

Original item by Ann Foxglove

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winston plowes

Wed 5th Jan 2011 15:47

This is superb Ann.

Together with my breaking paper chains one we have the perfect miserable festive season! LOL Seriously it is a great poem. Can it be sharpenned still further perhaps?

on the pavement
a plastic cup
of new year's wine Refills
with Winter rain

Is that any better? Hmm. Don't think you need new year's EVE as new year wine is only drunk at this time. could in the gutter replace on the pavement? (Too cliche I feel)Thats the think with these short poems, one small change makes a big impact. Win X

Comment is about ros/e (blog)

Original item by Ann Foxglove

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Marianne Louise Daniels

Wed 5th Jan 2011 15:47

I enjoyed this, got rather caught up in the Brief Encounter.

You have an excellent writing style, i will return to write a more worthy comment...

Comment is about Indian's Head (blog)

Original item by Julian Jordon

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Laura Taylor

Wed 5th Jan 2011 14:57

Hi Mark

Shame, would have been really interesting to see your anal rebuttal! :D

Of course I understand that THIS IS A POEM. But, you welcomed and encouraged debate about it - specifically 'ideological critique'. However, I now get the sense that you are more than a little unhappy with my contributions, and seem to be taking this personally (hence your comment on my latest poem).

I don't state opinions as facts when I debate, as that is not real debate. Which of my 'opinions' do you believe I state as 'facts', out of interest?

I find your reference to my contributions as 'masculine arrogance' really quite interesting.

Please feel free to ignore or Big Red X me - I genuinely do not wish to cause offence, merely to discuss.

Comment is about Equally bad (AKA Rantings of an antisexist man in a post-feminist world) (blog)

Original item by Mark Mr T Thompson

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Mark Mr T Thompson

Wed 5th Jan 2011 14:01

I think I have responded, I did start an anal point by point rebuttal, then remembered THIS IS A POEM which I feel needs to be considered in it's context as a whole. Phrase by phrase, out of context (particularly in reference to time and tense) is just nonsensical. I also felt that most of your points were fairly similar and that I could avoid repetition by responding to the theme.

I think you have stated a lot of opinions as fact, where as I tend not to do this as I think it smacks of a very masculine arrogance, we have noted that neither of us believes in conforming to gender stereotypes so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.

Referencing outdated concepts is different to supporting them, understanding that a phrase can echo a historical meaning and having a wider one is a concept that you fail to understand or choose not to acknowledge.

Whether in the world you inhabit these concepts are outmoded or not, trust me they are alive and well (unfortunately in some cases in my opinion) elsewhere and I witness them virtually everyday, in people far younger than you and I (I work a lot in schools).

The reality is see is that for fear of causing offence, most people, let alone men, feel nervous to even express an opinion on these issues, much less enter into an active debate, which surely can't be good for anyone.

You acknowledge the import of the late twentieth century feminist movement, but who is bringing these discussions in to contemporary culture, popular or otherwise?

At least I have tried and anything as subjective as this is could never please everyone.

Comment is about Equally bad (AKA Rantings of an antisexist man in a post-feminist world) (blog)

Original item by Mark Mr T Thompson

<Deleted User> (7164)

Wed 5th Jan 2011 12:48

I think this is the shortest poem i've ever read of yours Ann but i enjoyed it, thanks.x

Comment is about ros/e (blog)

Original item by Ann Foxglove

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John Aikman

Wed 5th Jan 2011 12:36

Yes, I have been known to play with my balls in the park...I was a plucky and tireless mid-fielder who was always likely to pop up in the box and slot one in.

Generally speaking, I think most poems have altogether too many adjectives anyway, but when they are used they should be part of a metaphor or similie rather than just 'lovely' or 'nice'...but hey, what do I know?

:-)

Jx

Comment is about Ruchill Park, Glasgow 10 a.m. 29th December 2010 (blog)

Original item by Dave Bradley

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Laura Taylor

Wed 5th Jan 2011 11:35

Howdy Elaine

Blimey - thank you for all your recent comments! Yeh, you read right - am fiercely passionate about life. We don't know what's coming up, what's around the corner, the struggles awaiting us, so each single minute of each day MATTERS.

Are you going the Tudor next week? Not sure if I am or not yet, have overseas visitors for the week. Might drag them along!

Laura x

Comment is about Elaine (poet profile)

Original item by Elaine

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Laura Taylor

Wed 5th Jan 2011 11:22

Hi Mark

Well, you did say that you welcomed an ideological critique. I have provided one on request, but you don't appear to have addressed many of my points.

Clearly this is a poem and not an essay. And yes, subjectivity is an integral aspect of poetry. I am not of the school of thought that believes men cannot be feminists - that truly is Rad Fem ideology.

No, I am not applying interpretations that are out-dated, that speciality remains within the poem ;)

I didn't think you WERE trying to convince me of your opinion as such - just that I disagree, for reasons already outlined, with a lot of the content of the poem. This subject is very close to my heart after having spent a large part of my life not being 'allowed' to do what I wanted to in many areas of life, specifically because I am female, and 'should behave' in certain ways, so I find it impossible not to react. I feel the same way about boys and men being boxed in, fenced off, only 'allowed' to behave in certain ways. You have experienced this yourself. I just think it is much more liberating to think differently, to treat binary notions as a recipe not to be followed blindly. We share all of these 'qualities' - why should we only be allowed to follow one set of rules? Boys don't cry? They do though, don't they?

If this was written purely to spark debate, then I would say you have been successful ;D

Enjoyed the debate :)


Comment is about Equally bad (AKA Rantings of an antisexist man in a post-feminist world) (blog)

Original item by Mark Mr T Thompson

Philipos

Wed 5th Jan 2011 11:20

Hi Ann - thank you commenting on The Haunting - I did tweak one of the words as you suggested plus others - much obliged for your help

Comment is about Ann Foxglove (poet profile)

Original item by Ann Foxglove

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winston plowes

Wed 5th Jan 2011 11:02

Hi There, thanks for commenting on the Offal poem. It has undergone major surgery! (see blog entry)

Comment is about Andy N (poet profile)

Original item by Andy N

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winston plowes

Wed 5th Jan 2011 11:01

Hi There, thanks for commenting on the Offal poem. It has undergone major surgery! (see blog entry)

Comment is about Isobel (poet profile)

Original item by Isobel

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winston plowes

Wed 5th Jan 2011 10:58

Hi Ann, thanks for such a close reading on Sappho. glad you feel its an improvrment. It's not a piece with a great deal of hidden meaning, it's just what you make of it I think. In fact "a very hot, steamy and sexually charged christmas dinner" is pretty close to what was on my mind. Ooh HOT! Sappho was one of the 9 ancient Greek lyric poets from Lesbos and for some is also pretty hot and for others an iconic figure. She has a prettty interesting life story and there is a painting in the man chester gallery which is my fav painting in there. see it here -

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~loxias/sappho.htm

Win X

Comment is about Ann Foxglove (poet profile)

Original item by Ann Foxglove

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Dave Bradley

Wed 5th Jan 2011 10:47

Hi Graham

Very provocative, in the best sense of the word. Christianity got by without buildings for many years, and still does in some places. It's the people that matter - they are "living stones" 1 Peter Ch 2 v 5

Comment is about House of God (blog)

Original item by Graham Eccles

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Julian (Admin)

Wed 5th Jan 2011 10:04

Pretty witty ditty of those vixens in the city, Ann.
Naturally, one is fyocked by the language used by so demure a personage as yourself. Who said rock and roll was dead, eh?
Sock it to them!

Comment is about motherfuckinfox (blog)

Original item by Ann Foxglove

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Ann Foxglove

Wed 5th Jan 2011 09:47

Damn these english keyboards! ;-)

Comment is about ros/e (blog)

Original item by Ann Foxglove

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Isobel

Wed 5th Jan 2011 08:19

Thanks for taking another peek at my poetry Elaine - much appreciated. No idea what I'll read next Thursday - I've not written anything decent in ages. It may have to be summat ancient LOL. I enjoyed trying to fathom out your latest! xx

Comment is about Elaine (poet profile)

Original item by Elaine

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Greg Freeman

Tue 4th Jan 2011 23:11

Ah yes, the plummeting blackbirds! Mind you, I think this is a marvellous poem. I like the way you keep returning to the refrain.

Comment is about Buried Birds (blog)

Original item by Moira Eribenne

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Elaine Booth

Tue 4th Jan 2011 22:51

Thanks for this poem, Dave. As Isobel said - we need to shout out against this in any way we can.

Comment is about Shahla Jahed is dead (blog)

Original item by Dave Bradley

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Elaine Booth

Tue 4th Jan 2011 22:50

Such a lot of feeling and very thoughtful. I know that sense possibly almost of frustration - like you nearly know the person - maybe you might see them regularly but yet know they do not, will not reveal themselves on a deeper, more personal level. And then you ask yourself that question: "So much furniture / But is anyone at home?" - is there actually any deeper layers, anything to reveal or is it all a sham, your own imagintion. Brilliant.

Comment is about Where are You? (blog)

Original item by Dave Bradley

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Elaine Booth

Tue 4th Jan 2011 22:43

Liked this a lot. Great fun - "Her face it goes, 'I see you'"!

Comment is about Shopping Ghazal (blog)

Original item by Dave Bradley

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Elaine Booth

Tue 4th Jan 2011 22:40

It's not a complicated set of ideas (unlike those organised religion at times would have us believe) but you have put it in an accessible and very thoughtful way. By way of a logical argument - if one does believe in a personal god then by the very fact of that god being personal you have every reason to be close enough to "know" his/her mind!

Comment is about Christmas (blog)

Original item by Dave Bradley

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Elaine Booth

Tue 4th Jan 2011 22:28

Not been to many such gigs but I certainly can appreciate what you are saying here.

Comment is about Respect (blog)

Original item by Dave Bradley

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Elaine Booth

Tue 4th Jan 2011 22:22

Liked this, Dave - your obsession with words shines through. There is somethng quiet and humble in the repeated "I am grateful".

Comment is about Ruchill Park, Glasgow 10 a.m. 29th December 2010 (blog)

Original item by Dave Bradley

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Moira

Tue 4th Jan 2011 21:47

OMG!!!! Falling from american skies...apocalyptic happenings?!!!!

Comment is about Buried Birds (blog)

Original item by Moira Eribenne

Philipos

Tue 4th Jan 2011 20:35

Re; your further comments on The Hard Seat Isobel - absolutely I couldn't agree more - great to get the help with fine-tuning too

Comment is about Isobel (poet profile)

Original item by Isobel

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Isobel

Tue 4th Jan 2011 20:17

Happy New Year you! I completely mis-read Cynthia's poem then - for some reason I thought the tea cupboard was hers. Imagined you stopping off on the way to your Hebden experience. I shall definitely have to partake of this hobbit hole experience LOL. Look forward to catching up with you at the Tudor next week - hopefully.
xx

Comment is about Elaine (poet profile)

Original item by Elaine

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Elaine Booth

Tue 4th Jan 2011 19:20

Cynthia - I liked girlhood very much. It sounds very poignant to me. As a woman reflecting on one's girlhood is something very different to childhood. Girlhood evokes the awakening woman, the fresh beauty of a young girl etc etc. Childhood is something else - different word, different sense altogether. I also got something of the washing powder as an accoutrement of adult womanhood versus the magical imaginings of a girl to whom soap flakes look like snow rather than denoting hard graft. I loved "atlas arms" and, of course, "cellar of my girlhood".

Comment is about Winter Walk (blog)

Original item by Cynthia Buell Thomas

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Elaine Booth

Tue 4th Jan 2011 19:12

Hi, Isobel. Since the tea cupboard Cynthia refers to so beautifully is mine and since it appeals to you - you must come and see my hobbit hole sometime!!!! Love your new pic - it's really beautiful, such a cheering lovely smile. Happy New Year! x

Comment is about Isobel (poet profile)

Original item by Isobel

Philipos

Tue 4th Jan 2011 18:57

Hi Isobel - many thanks for commenting on The Hard Seat - yes the experience was certainly for me an instant cure for trivial suffering - and a long-term wondering about how people struggle through their lives that way

Comment is about Isobel (poet profile)

Original item by Isobel

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Mark Mr T Thompson

Tue 4th Jan 2011 18:35

No that makes perfect sense. One of my Mum's Favourites is 'Not Waving But Drowning' and she was mortified when she recently heard a recording in the poets own voice!

Comment is about Mark Mr T Thompson (poet profile)

Original item by Mark Mr T Thompson

<Deleted User> (7212)

Tue 4th Jan 2011 18:30

Isobel -"I would agree that men have great qualities also - let me scratch my head while I think of one ;-)"- we have dicks - does that not count as one ? :D
(well, one dick each, to be accurate)

Comment is about Equally bad (AKA Rantings of an antisexist man in a post-feminist world) (blog)

Original item by Mark Mr T Thompson

Philipos

Tue 4th Jan 2011 18:17

Hi John - was very flattered by your kind comments on The Hard Seat and will wait to see if there are any other valid comments before tinkering with it but I have already earmarked one or two of your suggestions for improvement - very much obliged

Comment is about John Aikman (poet profile)

Original item by John Aikman

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Mark Mr T Thompson

Tue 4th Jan 2011 18:15

Hi Laura,

Can a poem be critiqued differently to an essay? I believe so, especially when it frequently makes it clear that the statements contained are subjective (see language like seems, tend, appears, I guess). For me subjectivity and poetry are intrinsically linked, but I would state that as a personal opinion. I even question my own sanity in to the bargain! Essays I would say, need more balance and objectivity, the reference to poetic licence, was guess what, a more poetic way to put this point!

Is a man allowed to explore these issues from his own perspective? I would say I happen to be one of the males that have these tendencies and have had society outside of my parental home attempting to bang them out of me from a very young age, with constant comments from so called liberal educated (and occasionally feminist) individuals who questioned my sexuality as a result.

Are you perhaps applying out-dated interpretations to words that have a meaning that could be broader?

I return to the fact that this is supposed to create debate not convince you of my opinion, From that perspective alone it has been successful.

That, is the edited version of my response! :o)

Comment is about Equally bad (AKA Rantings of an antisexist man in a post-feminist world) (blog)

Original item by Mark Mr T Thompson

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Isobel

Tue 4th Jan 2011 17:19

How about nice? ;) x

You can let your imagine wander you know - you don't always have to tell it like it is. Those dogs didn't need to be chasing the balls... I can imagine what John Aikman would be doing with them...

Comment is about Ruchill Park, Glasgow 10 a.m. 29th December 2010 (blog)

Original item by Dave Bradley

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Dave Bradley

Tue 4th Jan 2011 17:11

Thanks for commenting Greg, Andy, Izz and John. This website is like a Carry-on film sometimes (-: An excess of balls? Well,(boring explanation mode) you must have thrown the occasional ball to a dog. When they're chasing it, that's all they can think of, and the repetition was deliberate - to reflect the dog's tunnel vision.

Another word for lovely? The trees aren't majestic or particularly beautiful. There aren't a huge number of them but somehow they have the character of a small wood, even though they're not. Blowed if I know how to sum that up in one word - wish I could

Comment is about Ruchill Park, Glasgow 10 a.m. 29th December 2010 (blog)

Original item by Dave Bradley

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Isobel

Tue 4th Jan 2011 17:05

I'm gonna stick my oar in here - just for a minute. It will probably take Mark a while coming back to answer all those points.

I'd just like to say that I don't see what is wrong with posting a poem that has generalisation in it. If every poem had to be about bang on certainties, we would all be pretty restricted. At the end of the day, we are all coming at poetry from different experiences and backgrounds and that will colour our opinions.

Regarding women making better nurturers - I would have to agree with that generalisation. Like it or not there is a pronounced difference between males and females from birth. I have observed children play - from being very tiny they choose different toys, play differently and it isn't a question of conditioning - it is a question of choice.

Granted there will always be the exceptions to the rule like you and me Laura (my favourite toy was a cannon that smashed all my mum's pictures to bits) but on the whole the genders tend to follow a behaviour pattern from childhood - it is instinctive.

I would agree that men have great qualities also - let me scratch my head while I think of one ;-)

I would agree that extreme feminism harmed the cause if anything but can also see the point that it threw the issue into the public eye - much like the suffragettes.

I would agree with your point 7 Laura - though I think Mark is connecting loss of listening skills with the loutish, belligerent behaviour of a certain type of youth.

Tee hee - I did warn you Mark...

Comment is about Equally bad (AKA Rantings of an antisexist man in a post-feminist world) (blog)

Original item by Mark Mr T Thompson

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John Aikman

Tue 4th Jan 2011 16:56

Nice one. I agree with Greg though, 'lovely trees' isn't very illuminating...deer, dear.

*shakes his head slowly*

:-)

Jx

Comment is about Ruchill Park, Glasgow 10 a.m. 29th December 2010 (blog)

Original item by Dave Bradley

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alan barlow

Tue 4th Jan 2011 16:47

cheers philipos much appreciated im just trying to find my mojo again so to speak ???

Comment is about childhood (blog)

Original item by alan barlow

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Isobel

Tue 4th Jan 2011 16:42

too much use of balls... I love it...but now you mention it Andy...

Comment is about Ruchill Park, Glasgow 10 a.m. 29th December 2010 (blog)

Original item by Dave Bradley

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Chris Co

Tue 4th Jan 2011 16:41

Thx for the comment on the latest Dave- insightful and appreciated.

I was thinking about this idea/poem in the wider context rather than simply the personal.

On which note; maybe you could detail that biblical story and reference over that pint we mentioned.

Chris

Comment is about Dave Bradley (poet profile)

Original item by Dave Bradley

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Chris Co

Tue 4th Jan 2011 16:38

Thx for the feedback Andy- appreciated.

The lip service comment...yea it is one of those where you can open your mouth and heart simultaneously and wish you had done neither.

Chris

Comment is about Andy N (poet profile)

Original item by Andy N

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Chris Co

Tue 4th Jan 2011 16:34

Hi Laura, Thx for the feedback on my latest- appreciated.

Words are great but I don't think they fix everything...sounds like you have felt the same way.

Chris

Comment is about Laura Taylor (poet profile)

Original item by Laura Taylor

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Chris Co

Tue 4th Jan 2011 16:30

Hi Isobel- thx for the feedback and thought on my latest.

I agree with what you were saying...made/makes sense.

Not always easy to try and explain different points when it is between the lines stuff.

Hope I didn't sound odd in trying to wrestle my own logic to the floor.

It was good to get some real thoughts going on the issue.

Chris

Comment is about Isobel (poet profile)

Original item by Isobel

Philipos

Tue 4th Jan 2011 14:49

This is a purler - love the measured pace/economy of words which gives it so much oomph

Comment is about childhood (blog)

Original item by alan barlow

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Andy N

Tue 4th Jan 2011 13:41

like the repeating at the end of this, Dave although it did throw me a bit the first stanza as i originally thought there was two much use of balls... enjoyed it still..

Comment is about Ruchill Park, Glasgow 10 a.m. 29th December 2010 (blog)

Original item by Dave Bradley

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Laura Taylor

Tue 4th Jan 2011 13:18

Hi Mark

Firstly, you mention below that you would actively encourage ideological critique, but then go on to say 'This is after all a poem not a theoretical lecture, so the term poetic licence may apply' - am a bit confused as to what you want from the feedback, but as you have requested, here's a bit more...you did ask!

Re Rad Feminism - as I've already stated, I believe it to be an important step in the process, but I don't think it should continue as a current way of thinking. As with Malcolm X/Nation of Islam, it is a separatist movement - is that the way to reach equality? Malcolm X reached the conclusion that it wasn't. The Rad Fems took an aggressive inversely sexist position, which merely replicated a hierarchy. Doesn't solve anything ultimately, just pits people against each other.

The first verse, lines 3 and 4 - I don't understand. The culture is what is instinct? Which important female qualities? The nurturing?

Transgender pat on the back? I don't understand why t/g comes into it.

Generalisations:

1. Women make the best nurturers

2. Further to my confusion outlined above, I will take the understanding of 'important female qualities' being female. Why female? That's a huge disservice you do to men there, not to mention setting boundaries for women.

3. Derided almost everywhere - are they? Is it? Do you mean in the media, or in the massively diverse society we have?

4. Ladettes? Outdated terminology, as is the phrase 'equal but different'. The latter is Victorian in origin, in terms of feminist discourse, and it both sets and limits all genders, by fencing in 'masculine' and 'feminine' qualities, and instructs people as to how they should be.

5. 'feminine quality'? As above. How so? Who says? Equanimity's definition is in opposition to the psychological and media-favoured representations of women as irrational beings.

6. Again with sex and gender - if we're talking aggression, how about the Rad Fems Scum Manifesto, and Dworkin's theory that all men are potential rapists, that heterosexual penetrative sex is rape?

7. Why does powerful projection equal a lack of listening skills? What is this based on?

Sorry for the epic, but like I said, you did ask!

Again, disclaimer that this is not being negative for negativity's sake, just explaining as requested.


Comment is about Equally bad (AKA Rantings of an antisexist man in a post-feminist world) (blog)

Original item by Mark Mr T Thompson

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