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winston plowes

Thu 6th Jan 2011 12:25

"Poetry?! In Wigan?! Stop being gay and eat a pie."

Stereotypically wonderful!

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alan barlow

Thu 6th Jan 2011 12:11

cheers fella much appreciated

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winston plowes

Thu 6th Jan 2011 11:47

Hi Cynthia -
1) Chinked. as in to make a sharp, ringing sound, as of coins or glasses striking together.used here in connection with the pile of stacked bowls.
2)Starred should be Stared as in a fixed gaze
Thank you for you correction.
Win x

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winston plowes

Thu 6th Jan 2011 11:30

LOL Ann, its a lyre! Win x

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winston plowes

Thu 6th Jan 2011 11:17

and an excellent rendition live at the Exhibition Hotel in York last Tuesday. Well done John. Win

Comment is about Ah Yes, I Remember it Well (blog)

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Cynthia Buell Thomas

Thu 6th Jan 2011 11:17

This is a great poem. I, too, have always wondered. The 'blackbirds' story is horrifying; and the fish washed up on the shoreline. Since you were impelled to write this I'm glad that you chose to share it. Surely there will be answers soon. Somebody must be looking for an explanation for this ghastly happening in air and water - both environments being a very chilling fact.

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winston plowes

Thu 6th Jan 2011 11:15

Hi John, thanks for your comments on 'in my Dreams you're Alive' glad you liked it on the page. If it comes near to being as good as your singing then I'm on to something! lol. Win x

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Cynthia Buell Thomas

Thu 6th Jan 2011 11:07

This is really good, Ann. It is an astute observation, made into a symbol, and the effect of symbols is entirely related to the viewer's/reader's predilection of mood and temperament.

Winston is grim today, not poetry. He is enjoying himself or he wouldn't be there.

Comment is about ros/e (blog)

Original item by Ann Foxglove

<Deleted User> (7164)

Thu 6th Jan 2011 11:06

Brilliant Marianne.
I do read much of your poetry and don't always fully appreciate the meaning or understand your language but this one touches me somehow.
There's too much to pick out as favourite bits but i love those last two verses in particular :-)

Comment is about On Reading War (blog)

Original item by Marianne Daniels

<Deleted User> (8943)

Thu 6th Jan 2011 11:01

Hi Cynthia, one less less in pointlessless, it was a typo in any case!
Thank you so much for your feedback, I'm new to this or any other site & haven't shared my poetry with many people other than close friends and family so constructive criticism is welcome. I wondered about the immobilised line & thought it might be extraneous but wanted to ensure the butterflied bit was understood.
And hey, I don't mind being in the same company as Mr Shaw - lol!

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Laura Taylor

Thu 6th Jan 2011 11:00

Hi Mark

Oh well, we seem to have reached a mexican stand off. I don't feel that you replied adequately to my points at all either. Perhaps this has occurred due to us approaching the issues from different points - I have come at it from an admittedly quite dry academic level, having studied Feminisms as part of my degree, and also from a personal level, having come up against endless barriers in life due purely to being born female. It is something I am intensely interested in, surprise surprise! I think we are both so focussed on our own approaches that it may be obstructing our views of each others.

I put Radical re your mum in capitals because I was really surprised, and emphasised it to gain clarification. It's just that I've come across people using the term radical to mean something different to the original feminist theory definition. I was surprised because feminisms are so diverse these days that I didn't understand why someone would continue to hold to that definition/theory when it is such a separatist movement.

Which first post? On here or mine? I haven't edited anything.

Okay, well, I don't usually go in for explanations, as already mentioned on my poem, but for the purposes of this debate I will. Firstly, it is a haiku, which should contain some enigma/ambiguity. It is a play on a playstation game (Hierarchy Two - which sounds like a game's title), which sprang from the idea of replicating hierarchies within Radical Feminism. It is also about how we as a (Western) society are presented from birth (well it actually exists before we are born) with a binary gender agenda. The expectations are there from birth - we are dressed in certain colours, bought certain toys, told how 'that is not ladylike', or 'boys don't cry' (just examples off the top of my head, and ones which I myself was exposed to). Boys are not usually given dolls to play with, nor are they 'allowed' to wear 'feminine' clothes. Girls 'should' wear dresses, and not be confrontational - or 'feisty' (a word only ever applied to girls and women).

We are presented with these two concepts of what it is to be masculine and feminine, and anything outside of that is considered an 'exception', or not 'normal'. You can't be both, or neither, you have to fit into one, or be considered deviant. We are told how to behave and are controlled by the concepts. Try walking down the street in a dress and see how you are treated. I have been mistaken for being a bloke more times than I can remember, and I think it has something to do with having short hair, not wearing frocks, or much make up, and maybe something to do with how I stand/walk. I am somehow 'lacking' in 'feminine' qualities which give people the clues to who I am.

The Arrow Circle Cross verse has 3 layers. First, the symbols of male and female, with the female one being a circle with a cross attached, the male a circle with an arrow. All of these symbols may also be found on a playstation handset, in a slightly different set up. There is also an alchemical element to them in that they are also symbols of copper (female) and iron (male). They are all representative, as are the terms we have been discussing.

What I'm trying to say is that the generalisations I have used are in there to show how they actually come from above - the powers/authority that actually GIVE us the game, who tell us how to play it. And people do use the terms masculine and feminine all the time, without really thinking about how they define us...how we just accept an authoritative definition of who we are, based solely on firstly our sex, and then using that to shape our genders. In one way, you could say that your poem highlights this, but in another you yourself are using and accepting the terms. Just because hard-drinking etc has been associated with 'masculine' behaviour, does not mean that it is inherently 'masculine' to do this. It might just be that some girls like to drink a lot, or show aggression. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are replicating anything, just that women do have more social freedom these days, and more financial independence.

Therefore, this game is given to us, and we think we are playing it. But we're not using our definitions or rules, we're using someone else's, so it is US that is being played.

The last line is a reference to a film, This Sporting Life, in which the main character is given status purely for his 'masculine' quality of aggression on the rugby pitch. It ultimately destroys him, but it is what gains him acceptance by society.

I use those generalisations to make my point. So instead of accepting them, it questions them, puts the spotlight on them, and shows how we are played. Ultimately, it's a comment on the concepts and how we use and are used by them. In bringing attention to it, you can then begin to question it, and perhaps start to chip away at the edifice a little.

I understand that we use the terms masculine and feminine all the time, but we only use them because they are already in existence. We wouldn't be having this debate if the concepts had not been laid down for us to follow in the first place.

You are right - who IS bringing the later feminist discourses into general debate? No one. That's part of the problem.

It's my belief that no one should feel nervous about discussing and debating these issues. This has been really interesting, if a little frustrating for us both.

Comment is about Equally bad (AKA Rantings of an antisexist man in a post-feminist world) (blog)

Original item by Mark Mr T Thompson

<Deleted User> (7164)

Thu 6th Jan 2011 10:57

Beautiful piece of prose Julian :-)

Some great imagery which makes me want to visit Indian's Head to compare the visuals with the reality. I want to know more which for me makes it better than some others i've come across. It is a truly haunting story and yes, very sensitive too.x

Comment is about Indian's Head (blog)

Original item by Julian Jordon

Philipos

Thu 6th Jan 2011 10:40

Hello Ann - re; the Hard Seat - thanks for commenting - I will keep a look out for your one of similar genre - good look with it

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Cynthia Buell Thomas

Thu 6th Jan 2011 10:12

Cute is good.

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Cynthia Buell Thomas

Thu 6th Jan 2011 10:01

Isobel, the cupboard so offered was Elaine's. I was the guest in her house. My variety of teas extends to ten (I was quite shocked when I realized this, lying in bed and counting them off on my fingers...what WOULD I have done if I had possessed more teas than fingers! :) Happy New Year.

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<Deleted User> (8943)

Thu 6th Jan 2011 09:31

Thanks Andy - nice when something written creates a physical response, let's me know I'm on the right track ;) x

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Ray Miller

Thu 6th Jan 2011 08:35

Nice one, John.

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Ann Foxglove

Thu 6th Jan 2011 08:21

Lovely, John (but just check, I think you've got too many knots (nots) in your hair - last line;-) xx

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Andy N

Thu 6th Jan 2011 08:13

i particularly like streaked honey shone down through the water, alan but enjoyed the full piece...

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Andy N

Thu 6th Jan 2011 08:08

Hi Isobel - glad you liked my Penguin poems... I wrote them just for a laugh really and thought it had been a while since I posted anything silly online, so henceforth... Hope to see you at Guitars and Verse (even though I am cold ridden)

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Mark Mr T Thompson

Wed 5th Jan 2011 23:29

To be honest Laura you have been merely frustrating not offensive in the slightest.

I felt that I responded to clarify pretty straight forwardly, but you failed to acknowledge any of my points.

When I went and looked at your piece I was quite amused that many of your complaints could be levelled at your work. However I wouldn't be facetious enough to suggest that you can't make a point with phrases that could be considered generalised and outdated. That I would leave to you!

Interestingly your first post seems to have mysteriously disappeared and I might suggest a little editing may have occurred elsewhere, which makes your argument look a lot more reasonable. Although, you have left in the bit where you question whether I know how my mother describes herself with an interesting use of capitalisation.

Would a comment of surprise have been less challenging and open to accusations of an arrogant and patronising tone?

;o)

Comment is about Equally bad (AKA Rantings of an antisexist man in a post-feminist world) (blog)

Original item by Mark Mr T Thompson

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Isobel

Wed 5th Jan 2011 22:58

I think we sometimes take the written word - in fact the spoken word also - far too seriously. The hard thing about the written word is that it IS just that - recorded forever more to be mulled and chewed over. If we get the nuance slightly wrong we are crucified forever and a day. It does make one wary about saying anything lest you should offend. Which is rather a pity since that means bottling up vague feelings that you have which may just be at odds with what others feel. Often we only firm up what we believe by discussing it...

I'm always saying things that get up people's nose - being on the whole an opinionated person. I don't expect to bend anyone to my way of thinking though - nor do I take offence if someone else thinks differently. I'm hopeful that we are all basically like that - it's just the flat medium of the internet that makes it difficult to communicate without seeming to argue.

What I would hate to see is a society where you can't express yourself without being labelled as something with an 'ist' or 'ic' on the end of it. So many steer clear of 'discussions' like this for fear of that.

Comment is about Equally bad (AKA Rantings of an antisexist man in a post-feminist world) (blog)

Original item by Mark Mr T Thompson

<Deleted User> (7212)

Wed 5th Jan 2011 22:29

Fuck !! - where's Isobel when you need her ??

Comment is about Equally bad (AKA Rantings of an antisexist man in a post-feminist world) (blog)

Original item by Mark Mr T Thompson

<Deleted User> (7212)

Wed 5th Jan 2011 22:21

Dave -
"Another word for lovely? The trees aren't majestic or particularly beautiful. There aren't a huge number of them but somehow they have the character of a small wood, even though they're not. Blowed if I know how to sum that up in one word - wish I could"

I think your aim here, for Demotic words, not florid, not grandiose, not majestic, not poetical, not lyrical - ie just plainly spoken - as in a conversation - is entirely valid and even laudable. There's nothing wrong with lovely trees - it's Your poem - if they're lovely, they're lovely - end of !

Comment is about Ruchill Park, Glasgow 10 a.m. 29th December 2010 (blog)

Original item by Dave Bradley

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Ann Foxglove

Wed 5th Jan 2011 19:36

A case of the cup being either half empty or half full then!! (But maybe poetry is supposed to be grim?) xx

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winston plowes

Wed 5th Jan 2011 19:34

To me it had none of those positive meanings Ann , just deliciously grim. Win X

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winston plowes

Wed 5th Jan 2011 19:27

Hi Tom, thanks for looking in on Sappho, there is a bit more explanation on the blog entry now, if it makes any sense, and yes this does seem of a similar style to the NMH one although it comes from a different source. err... my head. H X

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winston plowes

Wed 5th Jan 2011 19:24

What Gus likes must be good. He has good taste! Thanks very much for dropping by and commenting on Sappho, Win x

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winston plowes

Wed 5th Jan 2011 19:22

LOL. Gabrielle blow your horn.

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Ann Foxglove

Wed 5th Jan 2011 18:50

Ta for comments folks. I did see a plastic cup of red wine slowly filling up with rain when I went to the village on new year's day morning. I wish I could have got the word "pink" in there somewhere - it did look very pretty! I think the message could be read in a more positive way. The red alcohol being replaced by the fresh Cornish rain, turning it to something purer and clearer maybe? Or someone's new year resolution to give up the demon drink perhaps? I think I might prefer the wine tho!

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Francine

Wed 5th Jan 2011 18:48

I can identify with her feelings...
This is so romantic... a classic love story.

Comment is about Indian's Head (blog)

Original item by Julian Jordon

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Ann Foxglove

Wed 5th Jan 2011 18:44

What a lovely poem - and I do think it's a poem! That discovery of your mum's "other" life, if you like. And things that could have stayed hidden about her, you found out, she told you, that's wonderful! As a mother myself the phrase "my little old mum" caught me totally. That you can suddenly see your mum as a young woman. I expect my kids see me as "my little old mum". But that's not how I see myself. Is that our tragedy or our salvation - that, to ourselves, we never change?

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Rachel Bond

Wed 5th Jan 2011 17:31

thank for your comments on 'dirty rag'. see you soon x

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Isobel

Wed 5th Jan 2011 17:18

Yes - this is touching - it reminds me of a story in my family. My maternal grandmother (who I never knew) was engaged to a Captain Philips who was in charge of the radio on the Titanic. He went down with the ship and so she later married my grandfather, who I did meet but wasn't worth meeting...
It is strange to think that you may not have existed if a happier path had been trod.

Comment is about Indian's Head (blog)

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Julian (Admin)

Wed 5th Jan 2011 16:57

Thank you all for your kind comments. It was written for a magazine, then I decided not to send it off. Prefer to share it here, amongst this lovely band of writing friends.

Comment is about Indian's Head (blog)

Original item by Julian Jordon

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Laura Taylor

Wed 5th Jan 2011 16:14

Lovely - poignant, tender, sensitive.

Comment is about Indian's Head (blog)

Original item by Julian Jordon

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winston plowes

Wed 5th Jan 2011 16:07

Hi John, nice to see and hear you last night. This is that poem we were talking over.

http://www.writeoutloud.net/public/blogentry.php?blogentryid=17656

It will be interesting to see what you make of it,

Win

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Laura Taylor

Wed 5th Jan 2011 16:04

Respect for putting this up Dave

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winston plowes

Wed 5th Jan 2011 16:03

Hi Iso, lengthy comments on all sorts of rubbish left for you on the 'Sappho' blog entry. Win XXX

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Laura Taylor

Wed 5th Jan 2011 16:02

Mmm bobbing white rumps. Ooops, sorry, Carry On mode ;)

That last verse is a corker.

Comment is about Ruchill Park, Glasgow 10 a.m. 29th December 2010 (blog)

Original item by Dave Bradley

<Deleted User> (8943)

Wed 5th Jan 2011 16:00

Hello Ann, for me this poem symbolizes the almost anticlimactic feel of new year's day, the festivities now over...

Just read your poems on your profile and enjoyed the images you painted in the third piece; the seal's head, the seaweed and mussels, the windows - I can almost smell the scene. x

Comment is about ros/e (blog)

Original item by Ann Foxglove

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Gus Jonsson

Wed 5th Jan 2011 15:56

Very nicely written Julian a lovely gentle empathtic pace.

I enjoyed the nostalgic tangle of missyou moment , love, fated irony.

Great stuff.
Gus

Comment is about Indian's Head (blog)

Original item by Julian Jordon

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winston plowes

Wed 5th Jan 2011 15:50

Also loved the 'diluting' title but would work better if there was a little more red in the plastic cup. Win

Comment is about ros/e (blog)

Original item by Ann Foxglove

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winston plowes

Wed 5th Jan 2011 15:47

This is superb Ann.

Together with my breaking paper chains one we have the perfect miserable festive season! LOL Seriously it is a great poem. Can it be sharpenned still further perhaps?

on the pavement
a plastic cup
of new year's wine Refills
with Winter rain

Is that any better? Hmm. Don't think you need new year's EVE as new year wine is only drunk at this time. could in the gutter replace on the pavement? (Too cliche I feel)Thats the think with these short poems, one small change makes a big impact. Win X

Comment is about ros/e (blog)

Original item by Ann Foxglove

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Marianne Louise Daniels

Wed 5th Jan 2011 15:47

I enjoyed this, got rather caught up in the Brief Encounter.

You have an excellent writing style, i will return to write a more worthy comment...

Comment is about Indian's Head (blog)

Original item by Julian Jordon

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Laura Taylor

Wed 5th Jan 2011 14:57

Hi Mark

Shame, would have been really interesting to see your anal rebuttal! :D

Of course I understand that THIS IS A POEM. But, you welcomed and encouraged debate about it - specifically 'ideological critique'. However, I now get the sense that you are more than a little unhappy with my contributions, and seem to be taking this personally (hence your comment on my latest poem).

I don't state opinions as facts when I debate, as that is not real debate. Which of my 'opinions' do you believe I state as 'facts', out of interest?

I find your reference to my contributions as 'masculine arrogance' really quite interesting.

Please feel free to ignore or Big Red X me - I genuinely do not wish to cause offence, merely to discuss.

Comment is about Equally bad (AKA Rantings of an antisexist man in a post-feminist world) (blog)

Original item by Mark Mr T Thompson

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Mark Mr T Thompson

Wed 5th Jan 2011 14:01

I think I have responded, I did start an anal point by point rebuttal, then remembered THIS IS A POEM which I feel needs to be considered in it's context as a whole. Phrase by phrase, out of context (particularly in reference to time and tense) is just nonsensical. I also felt that most of your points were fairly similar and that I could avoid repetition by responding to the theme.

I think you have stated a lot of opinions as fact, where as I tend not to do this as I think it smacks of a very masculine arrogance, we have noted that neither of us believes in conforming to gender stereotypes so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.

Referencing outdated concepts is different to supporting them, understanding that a phrase can echo a historical meaning and having a wider one is a concept that you fail to understand or choose not to acknowledge.

Whether in the world you inhabit these concepts are outmoded or not, trust me they are alive and well (unfortunately in some cases in my opinion) elsewhere and I witness them virtually everyday, in people far younger than you and I (I work a lot in schools).

The reality is see is that for fear of causing offence, most people, let alone men, feel nervous to even express an opinion on these issues, much less enter into an active debate, which surely can't be good for anyone.

You acknowledge the import of the late twentieth century feminist movement, but who is bringing these discussions in to contemporary culture, popular or otherwise?

At least I have tried and anything as subjective as this is could never please everyone.

Comment is about Equally bad (AKA Rantings of an antisexist man in a post-feminist world) (blog)

Original item by Mark Mr T Thompson

<Deleted User> (7164)

Wed 5th Jan 2011 12:48

I think this is the shortest poem i've ever read of yours Ann but i enjoyed it, thanks.x

Comment is about ros/e (blog)

Original item by Ann Foxglove

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John Aikman

Wed 5th Jan 2011 12:36

Yes, I have been known to play with my balls in the park...I was a plucky and tireless mid-fielder who was always likely to pop up in the box and slot one in.

Generally speaking, I think most poems have altogether too many adjectives anyway, but when they are used they should be part of a metaphor or similie rather than just 'lovely' or 'nice'...but hey, what do I know?

:-)

Jx

Comment is about Ruchill Park, Glasgow 10 a.m. 29th December 2010 (blog)

Original item by Dave Bradley

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