This is wonderfully poignant and observant.
Comment is about Frank (blog)
Original item by John E Marks
Wow - love it. You are very talented. Can't wait to hear the song, being a fan of folk music.
Comment is about Walkin' Man (blog)
Original item by Ian Whiteley
Fri 7th Feb 2014 19:21
Like this. Excellent and fun way to get children to remember historical facts.
Comment is about The Tudor Kings and Queens (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Quite, Chris. Indeed not only am I not ring to avoid reaction, I invite it.
Interestingly my current blog is set at one. Of the most tumultuous times for England. Civil war, religious burnings, war with Spain. Reaction? Nil.
What will future generations make of our far less turbulent times? I suspect about the same.
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
This is really well-written. All the more horrific because it is true.
Comment is about February Morning (blog)
Original item by Karin
Great rhyme and rhythm. I agree, very moving.
Best Wishes Starfish.
Comment is about Rythm (blog)
No you don't NEED to say anything John. But that begs the question, why on earth bother to write something that is clearly about nothing other than raising such questions and in particular raising peoples hackles?
Feigning surprise or innocence just doesn't hack it I'm afraid.
Free speech grants you the ability to express yourself unfettered. You have done just that. What free speech does not afford you is the freedom from reaction.
You can offend sensibilities and there is nothing people can do about that. But equally do not be surprised if a crack in the ice appears under your feet!
Do not be surprised if people vehemently dislike the implications that arise from a problematic piece of writing, that fails to take into account the ambiguity left all too clearly within it.
Don't be surprised if upon wriggling around and not giving anything approaching a straight answer for most of a discussion that people, figuratively hang you in the court of public opinion.
Either way remember, if this offends John - that too is free speech, free thought and every bit as equal in measure to your own.
Heyho
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
<Deleted User> (6895)
Fri 7th Feb 2014 18:08
<Deleted User> (6895)
Fri 7th Feb 2014 18:06
the poor victim was lucky he wasn't killed.What a cowardly act.Think again about going into those woods!.xx
Comment is about February Morning (blog)
Original item by Karin
<Deleted User> (6895)
Fri 7th Feb 2014 18:02
our deepest sympathies Gary.Very moving poem indeed.xx
Comment is about Rythm (blog)
<Deleted User> (6895)
Fri 7th Feb 2014 17:59
gorgeous poem and picky!xx
Comment is about Only in my dreams... (blog)
Original item by Noris Roberts
Chris, I haven't said that is what I do think and, of course, I don't need to. Da Vinci never said what Mona Lisa was laughing at!
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Following on from your last post John.
In answer - very much intact!
It would just beg the question - why on earth didn't you just say so? Hehe
Question though - How many people "choose" not to work or just laze about or defraud the system John?
I can tell you that benefit fraud runs at around 0.7 - 1%.
I can tell you that benefit fraud costs the UK tax payer 1.2 billion a year. This usually translates to less than half the amount of money that goes unclaimed by people entitled to benefits that the government deliberately fails to properly detail.
To put this in context tax fraud, costs around 15.6 billion a year - these figures are facts not estimates.
Now there are ingrates for you! But where is the national conversation about the largely middle class crime of tax fraud?
Then we have tax avoidance, legal though thoroughly immoral. That runs at anything between 25 billion and 90 billion a year - depending upon what estimate you choose.
Again who are the ingrates?
If you overshot your weekly shopping budget of £150 by, oh I don't know say £500 quid say. Would you a) prioritise and look to take issue with the big monetary items that are causing the huge issue. Or would you b), look to blame your economical situation on buying a loaf of bread too many?
Food for thought it seems...
Jumping back to your explanation - re socialism.
Of course, i'm not sure where that would leave the poem. I'm not sure it could be taken as a parable in the wider sense, particularly in light of your other comments. Because we couldn't apply the poem as a parable, it would fall over in reference to the obvious wider interpretations and rigour that we have put it through/applied to it.
Interesting discussion all the same.
I think we can all agree on the aspirational 'a fair days work, for a fair days pay.
I wonder how any of us interpret that in the modern dystopia of work fare and zero contract hours - looks to the sky and sees only rain.
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Hi Chris, was it you who performed at the Ring O Bells a couple of week back. Trying to track down for Norman Warrick.
Katie
Comment is about Chris Co (poet profile)
Original item by Chris Co
Interesting observations everyone makes, guys.
But here's another thought prompted by what some of you have blogged.
Supposing if (just supposing) my thoughts on benefits (which some of you have determined this piece is about) were that society has an obligation to provide for its most vulnerable - those who through no fault of their own cannot provide for themselves (the sick, disabled, unemployed etc) but that it has no obligation to those who can but don't...
...is my socialism compromised by this view or is it still in tact?
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
I have to agree with most of what Chris has written, especially in the first of his long posts. A civilised country has a decent benefits system. That is fundamental and something that has (mostly) characterised the UK over past decades. Now our minds are being steadily, subtly poisoned (by the rich!!!) so that 'benefits' are thought of as a bad thing and benefit claimants as ungrateful scroungers. Meanwhile the benefits regime is being undermined and claimants treated in disgraceful, punitive ways. I'm not a claimant myself, so there's no self-interest, but my wife volunteers in a CAB and the stories of people being left with nothing to live on would make you weep.
If anyone wants to look further into what's actually going on in this country - http://www.scriptonitedaily.com/2013/04/08/scroungers-how-much-does-the-corporate-welfare-state-cost-the-tax-payer/
I wonder how grateful the rich are for the vast amounts they are abstracting from our economy?
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Fitzroy , i found this very interesting and i look forward to reading more of your work
Comment is about River (blog)
Original item by fitzroy herbert
great discussion and argument and counter argument on this thread boys and girls - irrespective of which side your socialist BREAD IS BUTTERED (OR NOT - SEE WHAT I DID THERE?) THEN POETRY NEEDS THIS TYPE OF DEBATE. sorry slipped into caps and can't be arsed retyping - lazy, socialist, b'stard that I am :-)
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Happy to take on board all views, Chris. We are "a broad church".
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
I've certainly been rejected by most, and I won't howl for my failures, but few magazines hold my interest. Editors sometimes declare their preferences, and sometimes not: there is a grim satisfaction in finding passages of poems and criticism, that consistently fail to give me any pleasure. When I do find something appealing I dip my hand into my pocket for a subscription. Let the others sink. So it would be interesting to hear what the boys from Poetry Review, Poetry London have to say: for at the moment my subscriptions stand at Zero.
Comment is about Top poetry magazine editors explain 'the art of choosing' (article)
Original item by Greg Freeman
All I can say John is that from what you have said both in the poem and in the subsequent discussion this is the only conclusion that I could reach in terms of parable.
If I am mistaken, then please forgive me.
What leads me to think as I do?
A poem that if not taken literally points to an idea of entitlement. You yourself said that gratitude had been replaced by entitlement, and quite clearly in connection with socialism, saying that was not your concept of socialism.
You went further and stated quite clearly that you believed socialism was a fair days pay for a fair days work, given this, in conjunction with the above what else are we supposed to think?
It seemed fairly obvious that you were attacking entitlement in the context of not working, which. I took to mean either or both - those on the dole or disability.
Again, If I am mistaken, forgive me, I apologise.
You must though surely see how I, Laura, and Ian would feel this way? Only you know what you meant, on which note I think you would need to elucidate.
Well it would be helpful in terms of discussion. If you do not wish to of course then that's for you (but then it makes it harder to be surprised, when people misunderstand you).
I still don't think the insistence on people answering the question works;
The who should pay the 5 ducats I mean...
at the very least there clearly must be too much ambiguity, too much room to interpret this in an entirely differing way, as myself, Laura and Ian all disagreed with you or at least the parable, interpreting the issue in a relatively similar way. To each other.
Any which way John, the discussion has been interesting. Free speech is a must, and that includes responses as well as original articles and poems.
Best of Chris
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Chris, Wow! Everyone seems to have strong opinions on something I've not said.
As I said in a much earlier response, I've read in many discussions on WOL the view that once a piece is printed ownership transfers to the reader.
If that is the case I'm happy for everyone to have their view. Wheelbarrows and chickens.
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Ive been in the same situation lots of times. Nice write :D
Comment is about Light or dark (blog)
Tonight was just great - thanks.
Well worth a 30-mile round trip on a wet winters evening.
Such a great mix of material, smoothly run and a friendly room to boot.
Review is about Red Shed Readings on 6 Feb 2014 (event)
Comment is about My Hero (blog)
Original item by tina
Perhaps you could help, though. Who should pay the missing 5 ducats?
The problem is the problem your question raises John ;)
If your scenario is literal and not a parable then our answer is simple - the son.
But we both know that you wish this to be a parable.
The problem lies herein. Your scenario or parable does not correlate with the situation that you would like it to correlate with. I thought that would appear clear enough following my prior post?
You're clearly connecting this with jobseekers and disabled claimants, that is your attempted parable, but it doesn't work. It fails for the reasons I have stated.
I have given you an answer to your literal story.
No logical answer can be reached in terms of using it as a parable, Not in the context you have alluded to, so unfortunately I cannot furnish you with one - an answer that is.
The answer that you are trying to lead people into is obvious, that like the literal, if used as a parable, the son is at fault. I utterly reject that as an illogical outcome/response.
The scenario that which is literal does not correlate with that of the claimed parable.
If you doubt this, I can if you like concoct a whole string of inappropriate parables that do example this. I can offer a whole string of stories where in the literal sense we have an obvious answer that can then not be used as a wider parallel that I can suggest.
P.S
And there's still nothing but nobility in the idea of a fair days work for a fair days pay. I do however worry John that somewhere along the line, in with the right ideas you've got a little lost.
Quote
“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”
Malcolm X
To add, may people would argue that redistributive taxation is handing money to ingrates. The same logic applies. If you think this is true then you're many things, but one of them is NOT a socialist.
If you do not think redistributive taxation is ingrates claiming money, then. I fail to see how used as a parable - your story fits into your thinking.
Surely you either - believe both the story as parable and think redistributive taxation is of the very same, or you do not accept your story as a parable and accept redistributive taxation.
In one sense, this should raise questions for you John, are you really a socialist? If you are, and you might well be, maybe you need to consider this logical inconsistency?
Opinions opinions hehe
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Thu 6th Feb 2014 18:00
I have! It is! A blues in E. But I wouldn't inflict my version of it on any audience unless a gun was held to my head. You should consider yourselves lucky...F
Comment is about Train of Thieves (blog)
Original item by fitzroy herbert
And here are the results for this one http://magmapoetry.com/magma-competition/
Comment is about Philip Gross to judge £1,000 Magma poetry competition (article)
Original item by Greg Freeman
Whoa, Chris! Plenty to chew on there.
Your thoughts are longer than my parable.
Perhaps you could help, though. Who should pay the missing 5 ducats? Do I have an entitlement to them? Am I entitled to be ungrateful?
I should add in the last comment I have got my ablative wrapped around my nominative. It should have been "Multum in Parvo".
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Seems to me the issue is one of context.
If this really is one person to another, a literal father and son or like relationship, then, unless we create some justifying backstory - of course the son is an ingrate! But then this wouldn't be a parable would it...
However...
If as a parable this is meant to relate to the current hot political potato of benefits and the welfare system, I would think the parable falls down and fails on a number of levels, for if that was the case;
a) the system is one of insurance, not handouts. Everyone pays in when they work, so that when hard times come knocking they can receive in the absence of work. If there was no possibility of this - why would anyone pay in, in the first place?
In other words the son would have paid the father for a long time and then, in effect would have been due his 10 ducats a day. To not pay them the father would be a thief!
b) I think the British system has been built in a certain way with a view to equity and the wish to try and create an equitable society. We all, democratically decided a long time ago that those people more unfortunate than ourselves should be afforded a life and not left to the wolves. People who are disabled that cannot work would go to the wall, or the wolves, whichever term you wish, if it wasn't for a system that we have that doesn't allow for this. The system does indeed entitle, just as the NHS entitles us all to free health care at the point of use. Society pays a monetary price for high ideals. If we didn't pay this price, we would lose our humanity and the value of that is greater!
In this case the money given to the son would not be the fathers, rather it would have been handed to the father by the village to care for his son and the son would indeed be entitled to the money. The village would gain much from this.
If anyone doubts the societal gains from a) and b), then I would invite them to compare the respective societies or villages of the USA and Britain. One has ghettoisation of the poor, and a much higher level of violent crime - most of which stems from a much, much more significant drugs and gang culture. That drugs and gang culture are intertwined and represent crude replacements of salary/funds and insurance/family.
Worth noting John;
A fair days work for a fair days pay is noble. However, what if there is no work John, or what if the person cannot work?
Key questions, don't you think?
P.S
Looking to the basic premise/analogy of a father and son; In this case, I don't think it matters where the father got the his money from, that is a legal issue only, not a moral one. So in that situation the son would not be entitled to it, no matter what the moral situation. If we argued otherwise the entire political system would fall apart and their would be blood in the streets.
Comment is about The Parable of the Shitty Little Ingrate (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
It is tempting to wonder if, when your poems are rejected by such magazines, that you are perhaps the victim of an establishment conspiracy to exclude outsiders. I've had poems returned from Poetry Review and The Rialto, and the thought did cross my mind momentarily on both occasions. But then I concluded, more reasonably, that the poems were just nowhere near good enough. There has to be a selection process. I carry on trying to improve them. I haven't submitted to these magazines again. Yet.
Comment is about Top poetry magazine editors explain 'the art of choosing' (article)
Original item by Greg Freeman
Yes, that´s an ongoing emotion, unfortunately. ;)
Comment is about Rage (blog)
Original item by Karin
Thank you guys, appreciated.
..and thank you for reminding me to come back and plonk the actual gate I had in mind on..the rest of course is pure fantasy!
Comment is about The Kissing Gate (blog)
Original item by Christopher Dawson
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:52
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:44
we will investigate!xx
Comment is about Of Lilith and Anthony - front cover preview... (blog)
Original item by Katy Megan
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:41
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:40
we agree with Wayne-nice to see you back on.xx
Comment is about No finish line (blog)
Original item by Noris Roberts
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:36
your work never fails to please Tom.xx
Comment is about See What Thinking Brings (blog)
Original item by Tom
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:36
your work never fails to please Tom.xx
Comment is about See What Thinking Brings (blog)
Original item by Tom
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:34
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:32
lovely poem Steve.Hope it aint personal.xx
Comment is about The coldest Morning (blog)
Original item by Steve Higgins
<Deleted User> (6895)
Wed 5th Feb 2014 19:29
'a waiting room of foreboding menace'
encapsulates the ongoing threat.xx
Comment is about Rage (blog)
Original item by Karin
Starfish
Fri 7th Feb 2014 19:36
You sentimental soul, you.
I shall google that song too; it's a new one on me.
Comment is about The coldest Morning (blog)
Original item by Steve Higgins