Cynthia Buell Thomas

the great fallacy

by Cynthia Buell Thomas

Thursday 19th May 2011 11:12 am

I present my argument:

Justice is a moral issue;

morality is subjective;

therefore - Justice is subjective.

The Just Person is:

upright righteous fair-minded

‘on the side of the angels’!

unbiased unprejudiced impartial

dispassionate indifferent detached

decisive unchallengeable

legitimate

objective

With all due reasonableness

the Just Person can:

champion advocate defend

complain reproach challenge

allege denounce accuse

charge avenge punish

kill – as vindicated by ‘just cause’

Justice is the substantiation that logical facts

will dictate the outcome of certain conclusions -

Demonstration is Justification!

bafflegab for ‘the end justifies the means’

which begs the question -

whose end and by what means?

Justice is a pipe dream opium filtered

a uniquely human ideal

thrashing like a maddened animal

through all civilizations -

always a shape-shifter

unharnessed

unharnessable

Cynthia Buell Thomas

justice

◄ escape

Worshipper of the Moon ►

Comments

<Deleted User> (7212)

Mon 23rd May 2011 18:16

you've nailed it Cyn - for example, is Nelson Mandela a statesman or a terrorist ?
depends on who's asking the question & when.
justice is a very elastic concept & in a full analysis there are no such things as "rights" (eg human rights)
well done. B

<Deleted User> (8043)

Mon 23rd May 2011 02:49

' I was quite amazed at the bizarre spread, '

' at the bizarre spread '

I feel that that is what comes across strongly in this poem - how difficult this subject is, how contradictory and conflicting the statements about it become are emphasised in your wild placement of words - they seem to jut up against each other as if fighting for room to breathe.

To me, it felt like a forum, with many voices. It's a difficult poem - but then it's a difficult topic, so I would have expected it to 'flow' as much as 'jut' and 'impale' - wonderful stuff!

Elaine Booth

Sun 22nd May 2011 19:33

I like the idea of justice as a shape shifter. For me that sums up best what you are saying: there is no one absolute definition of justice that can cut across all faiths, all social groupings, all cultures, all time. Or is there....? Hope the performance went well for you. XXX

Isobel

Sun 22nd May 2011 10:00

Am not reading all the other comments or it will sway me.

I think you summed it all up in your initial verse. Justice is subjective. Then you gave me a right head ache trying to follow your very clever brain and argument. You are definitely a philosopher Cynthia!

You could look at Justice in its bigger meaning. We are all born unequal - some draw terrible straws - life is a bit of a lottery. Faith helps many to get their heads round the inequity. The idea that things will be fair or 'just' beyond the grave.

Whatever justice is meted out on Earth is man-made and as you say subjective. If anyone harmed one of my kids, I'd want to tear their balls off and exact an excruciatingly painful death. Life imprisonment would be a holiday.

Just my thoughts of the day on this nice peaceable Sunday morning in our civilized society....

Cynthia Buell Thomas

Sat 21st May 2011 22:26

Just for interest: I wasn't going to touch such a hot potato as Justice'. But the idea wouldn't let me go. I looked up the term 'justice' in several books and followed the related threads until I had two A4's full of notes. I was quite amazed at the bizarre spread, each with supportive material. This is, after all, only a short poem, but I did put a lot of thought and editting into it, to make at least a slight inroad into the shocking contradictions which I found. Writing the poem made me realize even more ambiguities about this thorny subject.

Chris Co

Fri 20th May 2011 18:56

The poem is interesting in terms of rhetoric and I think it would read well. It could be used in a discussion of the power of rhetoric and semantics. From a logical philosophical point of view there are lots of false arguments, not least the repeated use of non sequiturs.

Whether that detracts from the poem or not is subjective. For me it makes it interesting for the aforementioned reasons.

Chris

P.S

Dave- the wider discussion of justice in the context of humanity and history was not the issue in our prior discussion. The issue was justice in the context of western civilizations in the year 2011. What happened with OBL takes place int he context of that bubble and in context to what happened at Nuremberg and what happened with Saddam and with Milosevic. The issue also revolved around the nuanced difference we have between 'needs must' and 'justice'. High redefinition of the latter is a slippery slope- something I previously detailed.

I am perfectly aware of the angle you were coming from and accept that justice is far from easily definable when taking in all the lands/people and history of the world. I agree with you on that- but that wasn't the point.

Tommy Carroll

Fri 20th May 2011 15:46

Homer Simpson voice: '...or is it?...'

Andy N

Fri 20th May 2011 08:07

enjoyed this, Cynthia... was a good night @ Freed Up although it did finish very late x

Francine

Thu 19th May 2011 20:30

Yes - 'Justice is a moral issue'... and so dependent on one's beliefs concludes 'whose end and by what means'

I believe in Karma, so in my mind, one can never escape justice.

Dave Bradley

Thu 19th May 2011 14:46

Excellent and I take your point (mostly). But justice is not solely a moral issue - it is also prudential within the context of a given society. If whatever the members of that society conceive as justice does not come about, then there are often adverse consequences. Alienation, cynicism, vigilantism etcetera.

It would be interesting to see what Chris Co made of this, after a recent inconclusive discussion on Steve Regan's Facebook page.

Terry White

Thu 19th May 2011 12:58

Good luck!

Cynthia Buell Thomas

Thu 19th May 2011 11:07

Going to the GreenRoom tonight, in Manchester, with this themed work on Justice'. Performance will dictate its reception - the manner of reading propelling the words in the sense desired....I HOPE.

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