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Prone to mental illness?

Did anyone else read the item on the BBC website about poets being twenty times more likely than non-poets to suffer from mental illness?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-12368624

A tendency of some sort isn't a surprise but 20 seems a big number. Any views?
Tue, 8 Feb 2011 11:27 pm
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What's a chartered psychologist? Major poets were 20 times more likely to suffer from mental illness. What about minor poets?All those rejection slips must have had some effect.
Wed, 9 Feb 2011 12:06 am
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How strange, the change, from major to minor ...

There are huge differences between major and (so called) minor mental illnesses, psychoses and neuroses. Not least that there is still the perception that people can 'help' the minor - the depressions, panic attacks, OCD etc, by showing more strength of character, pulling themselves together and so on. Not true. By and large, it's a matter of chemistry and insight. Well, hopefully, the medical profession can take care of the chemistry, I think poetry helps with the insight.

I can't remember who said it but I once heard a definition of poetry as being the art of expressing the inexpressible - so in illnesses which centre on strange, powerful, often inexpressible feelings - it's little wonder that so many of us turn to poetry at times of mental illness.
Wed, 9 Feb 2011 01:02 am
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The first thing I did after I saw mental illness reflected in my mirror, was to write a poem.
Wed, 9 Feb 2011 01:13 am
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Correlation and causation are very different things.

To say that poets are 'prone' to mental illness implies causation in a linear/one way direction.

e.g

Writing poetry leads to a statistical increase in the likelihood of developing mental health issues.

But all we know from the limited study is that there was a correlation between mental ill health and major poets over a set period of time.

All things being equal, it is just as possible to infer from the information available that people with ill health gravitate towards poetry.

Given the history/time and classification of mental health and more particularly what it meant to be a 'major poet', there might also be a significant bias within the study.

Major poets might have been wealthy and/or in writing more open to expression of opinions not accepted in these times. As a result they may have been more likely to have been diagnosed as having mental health issues than those from poorer backgrounds who had far less room for self expression.


Wed, 9 Feb 2011 02:47 pm
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Yes - it seems obvious to me that mental illness may lead to expression of feelings through poetry and not visa versa - though reading other people's poetry can make me mad at times...

I like the last point you make Chris - about differences between wealthy and poor people. It occurs to me that having the time to express yourself is another issue - and disposable time used to come with money - though not so much nowadays. Perhaps labour was the opium of the masses. I remember when I first struck out on an independent life 5 yrs ago and was working full time. Life was so full on and I was so tired, I didn't have time to think about my own condition or about writing poetry...
Wed, 9 Feb 2011 03:04 pm
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If you're interested in that sort of thing, and I am, it's worth going back toi the original study that gave rise to the statistic presented in the BBC article.

It's based on a retrospective study by an American psychologist, Kay Redfield Jamison, who is also a sufferer of Bi-Polar Disorder herself. She wrote a book called Touched with Fire, in which she retrospectively diagnosed just about every poet/artist between the 16th and 19th century as being bi-polar themselves and because so many of them had ended up in the bin she extrapolated her statistic, completely ignoring the fact that only wealthy folks wrote poetry that survives for posterity from those days (Byron, Keats, DeQuincey et al) and only wealthy folks actually ended up in asylums in those days too...and only wealth folks drank shed loads of brandy and smoked cartloads of opium.

Nowadays we can all write for posterity, all get pissed whenever we want and all get carted off to hospital when it gets too much.

I don't meet many poets on NHS psychiatric units, and I spend alot of time on them. My guess is that they are all in the Priory.

By the way, I've seen the poet Luke Young (mentioned in the article) live, and he's jolly good.

Remember that 'quotes' thread from a while back. Here's a good one from a review of 'Touched with Fire'...

'In a concert years ago in Saint Paul, Minnesota, the musical artist Leo Kottke remarked that his review of this book would be "When you're manic, you create. When depressed, you edit."

:-)

Jx
Wed, 9 Feb 2011 05:10 pm
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...and when you're schizophrenic you invent numerous online aliases. I'll say nothing about the delusions of grandeur.
Wed, 9 Feb 2011 06:46 pm
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...but what does that make us poets who are hopelessly sane and grounded? Also rans with a fondness of language, I suppose...

And I've just twigged your joke Chris :)))
Wed, 9 Feb 2011 06:53 pm
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Think everyone would be interested to look up the theory of Low Latent Inhibition, as it relates to this.

Something I read about open-mouthed, in recognition and identification.

Thu, 10 Feb 2011 02:36 pm
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Wikipedia agrees it can be linked to creativity and/or psychosis. It also says there is some evidence that Low Latent Inhibition can be brought on by use of marijuana

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_inhibition

Hmmm.
Thu, 10 Feb 2011 03:05 pm
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Could it also be consequently true that those prone to mental illness are twenty times more likely (than those who aren't) to attempt to write poetry? Maybe writing poetry is a manifestation - a symptom even - of mental illness. I'll keep taking the tablets.Regards,A.E.
Thu, 10 Feb 2011 07:34 pm
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Well there at least 10 people in this forum and I have been informed that 1 in 4 of us suffers from some form of mental health and surely we are more accepting in society today. I have no problem with the fact that mental health is a real illness and nothing to be ashamed of.Embrace and celebrate who you are warts' and all CYx
Fri, 11 Feb 2011 01:37 pm
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<Deleted User> (7164)

This is a very interesting link you posted Dave. I really enjoyed reading it :-)

The bit that says 'of course the more people break the rules, the more likely they are to be perceived as 'mentally ill' ''

That's me definitely classified then :-)

I have to say, after years of just living and working, writing was something that never entered my head. It was while suffering what my doc described as being a severe stress disorder that i found writing a kind of therapy. I wrote volumes of absolute rubbish that made no sense even to me and it was all about me. Very weird experience indeed.

Anthony - how nice to see you ;-)
but is taking the pills the reason for your not posting due to not having written anything?
Hope you are well ;-)
Fri, 11 Feb 2011 02:12 pm
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Everything is experienced at varying levels. When does cheesed off become depressed? I've written a lot of poetry when I've felt cheesed off...
You would definitely have to be very in touch with you moods to write serious poetry and moods change more often for some.
Fri, 11 Feb 2011 02:12 pm
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When does cheesed off become depressed?

I think there is a huge difference between days when I'm fed up, a bit down or over-sensitive perhaps, and those times when I've been seriously depressed.

Depression is, without doubt, the most horrible illness I have ever had - and I've had quite a few to choose from! It's isolating, debilitating, stigmatising and - and most of the world (and the people in it) is very frightening. One way or another - it stops you living.
Personally, I have never dealt with anything so relentlessly awful as depression. It is most definitely not a mood.

Cx
Fri, 11 Feb 2011 02:42 pm
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Apologies Chris - I wasn't meaning to trivialise the condition. I just wanted to say that there had to be levels of any condition - from mild to acute.
I think I've only experienced true, entrenched depression once in my life and that was due to life circumstances which I was able to evenutally change. I can remember feeling dead inside and very physically heavy hearted - like my rib cage was sinking into my stomach.
Thereafter came the ups and downs of what I'd call moods. When you are in a down though, it can feel bad.
Fri, 11 Feb 2011 03:37 pm
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p.s. I guess, by nature, I don't like labels. I am always wary of labels determining a person. In some cases I wonder if a few life changes might be the answer to the underlying problems. I acknowledge that it must be harder if you suffer from the condition but there is nothing that you can do to change the triggers - it not being possible to make those changes.
Fri, 11 Feb 2011 03:58 pm
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Sorry Isobel - wasn't ranting at you - just trying to draw a distinction between the two.
I'm not sure depression is very useful at all as an aide to the creative process - as I say - debilitating.
I rhink my output goes up significantly when I feel passionate about something - whether that be passionately angry or passionately ... erm .. passionate! When life's just tootling along nicely - I'm not very creative, though I do edit better :)

Cx
Fri, 11 Feb 2011 05:22 pm
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Ha - now I can't write when I'm feeling passionately passionate... my mind is elsewhere!

Anger is a great feeder for poetry though and ideas - I like to explore ideas. I did write when I was really depressed - it helped I suppose. It was really dark though - nothing I could ever put on here. My poetry has moved on a notch since then as well. I look at it now and wince.
Fri, 11 Feb 2011 06:07 pm
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i think that as the compere last night said , it has something to do with being a deep thinker. But you have to be careful with deep thinking sometimes you drown.
Fri, 11 Feb 2011 08:41 pm
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I would totally agree Shoeless. Deep thinking also leads to insomia, which leads to depression... a bit of a viscious circle. There is something to be said, healthwise, for vegging out in front of the telly and 'switching off'. I just wish I could learn to do it.
Fri, 11 Feb 2011 10:31 pm
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only need to veg out for five a day for good health though

mental 'ill health' in my opinion is only an illness when it becomes a trial to the person . other than that its just a different perspective than before
Fri, 11 Feb 2011 11:52 pm
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It seems to me we are in danger of confusion by using the same word to mean different things.
Clinical depression is not a 'mood', not a 'downer'.
It has become fashionable for the (fashionably) lazy thinkers, lazy users of English, to use the term "depressed" to describe their feelings when they are simply unhappy. Being unhappy is a natural part of a normal life. Ask our miserabilists!
It depresses me (non-clinically) that so many people do not take the trouble to consider what they write, especially poets, who are supposed to take care over every word they write. Precision, choosing the nice phrase, is all.
To be clinically depressed is a scary situation to be in - when you are 'lucky' enough to be aware that you are depressed. For several years I had not realised how much I had slid into it. 'Snapping out of it' or 'pulling yourself together' is not the simple option beloved of those observers who do not have experience of this debilitating condition.
My own experience suggests - as I re-read work from such a time - that, whilst it was for me a creative - that is, productive - period, my lack of self-awareness had me writing some really self-centred, trite trash.
On the other hand, at times of great unhappiness or raw emotion, usually some kind of relationship break-up, I have found myself more aware of certain sensations; things normally unnoticed now take on a new resonance, I notice all the love songs on the radio and relate to every syllable, suddenly it all has meaning; until I snap out of it and pull myself together.
Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:53 pm
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Poets reflect the times we live in , I suppose, and are as much in hock as everyone else, to those whose jobs are to sell us things that we don't need. Thus, depression becomes an all-inclusive term. Sure, there are differences in degree and the differences exist to enable a specialist to tell you which tablet will be most effective.
The meaning of other words is similarly blurred. Nobody is shy any more, they suffer from social phobia - and there's a tablet for it. Kids are no longer naughty - they suffer from hyperactive disorders or oppositional defiance - there's tablets for that too. I imagine it's one of our few growth industries.
Fri, 18 Feb 2011 07:37 pm
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I find your statement unnecessarily condemnatory Julian. On these discussion threads we are all feeling our way through the subject matter. If we are to be accused of laziness and inconsideration due to our lack of experience or knowledge, what incentive is there to take part?
I don't believe anyone has tried to undermine the serious nature of clinical depression. However, I believe, as Ray does, that depression can be experienced on many levels and for many reasons.
Fri, 18 Feb 2011 11:42 pm
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My mother was a mental health nurse, doing her duties mostly on communal day-wards. When I was nine she took me with her one day, as she went to the nurses' office on off-duty time to pick up something. She walked me down the caged corridors and left me in the common room for at least ten minutes, surrounded by twenty very 'disturbed' patients. It was a harsh exposure, but even at such a young age I knew that there was no poetry there. I clearly understood that all is degree, and semantics.
Tue, 8 Mar 2011 12:55 pm
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poetry is my way of dealing with mental health issues that arise,its calming and im very grateful to be able to put into words whats going on in my head sometimes or i would probably go mad altogether lol
Tue, 8 Mar 2011 02:49 pm
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<Deleted User> (9158)

I can be honest and admit to suffering with mild bi-polar disorder but amongst the writing that I do, it's not all death, suicide and tragedy. The only thing that I often find annoying (or good) about having this mental illness is there will be a time where I can write several poems in a day off the top of my head and then very long weeks of nothing.
Fri, 18 Mar 2011 09:49 am
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I would agree with the deep thinking thread to this discussion. However while I think deep thought can contribute to depression, depression can make it hard to think at all. I think the links between Bi-polar disorder, or even some milder boom and bust mentality are likely to be more interesting. And who would ever publish or perform without an element of narcissism?
Sat, 3 Sep 2011 11:30 pm
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<Deleted User> (6315)

Personally I enjoy the quirky side of poets.

Whether their writes are driven by a form of mental illness does not concern me in the slightest.

As to whether I may suffer or greatly suffer with a mental condition because I write poetry well I do not know what may happen in the future or want to know.

We can do anything with statistics can't we?..

Long may the poet whether mad, bad or otherwise live, wite with passion
and think not as others do.
Sun, 4 Sep 2011 06:42 pm
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