Just why do some venues charge entry fees? Why does any poetry open mic event need to charge for admission?

Why are some venues / organisers / poetry promoters effectively charging poets (who are, in the main, skint or virtuially starving) for reading their stuff?

I run an independent open floor poetry night in a pub (the Bards of New Brighton) and I wouldn't dream of charging admission.

Also, I get no public funding and I wouldn't accept it on principle. People gathering in pubs to read /perform poems; everyone gains, including the pub because the poets do buy SOME drinks.

So what are the admission charges about? Who gets to keep the money - and why? I'm genuinely puzzled and awaiting enlightenment.

Who gets to keep the admission fees, and what are they used for? Is there a righteous hero out there who will enter the precincts of the fee-charging poetry temples and overturn the money-changers tables?

In places where a room is asked for to provide more privacy for the readers, some of the venues might charge a fee.
Someone has to fork out for that. I suppose in Wols case, a small donation or door charge helps to keep the website up and running. I doubt there are many organizers out there who arrange the evenings for profit. Though i might be wrong. ;-)

The only ones i've visited where a charge is made are the Octagon, which is a theatre and has staff to pay for being there which has nothing to do with the event itself.
The other is the Howcroft in Bolton, which is held in a side room away from the pub regulars. I don't know if the door charge is towards a fee the pub charges or if it's for wol but it's only a quid plus a raffle ticket. Hardly pick pocketing is it. :-)

I'm now on a pension, but I don't mind being charged a nominal sum -such as ? you may ask,
if it goes towards supporting an excellent facility such as this website. Through it I have been given a voice which I would not otherwise have.
Have a nice Easter everyone.

By day I'm consumed by my own writing practice, but by night I enjoy the more philanthropic pursuit of promoting the work of other, younger poets who might not be able to find an outlet for their work. There are many more people out there who do the same, and the simple fact of the matter is that we're not all affluent. Good will doesn't pay room booking fees.

A counter-argument might be to approach the numerous funding bodies out there. All well and good, but the ethos of funding bodies doesn't always correspond with that of the event, which means there can be a danger of them taking ownership - all for the sake of avoiding charging admission.

My friends and I recently set up Letterbomb in Leeds - an evening of diverse poetry which lasts until long after many other poetry events are tucked up in bed. We also try to cultivate an informal, cheerful atmosphere where people feel at ease sharing new, experimental work. You get what you pay for and in this case I don't think two pounds is unreasonable.

Someone has to pay. Why should it be the organisers who have already contributed so much in terms of their own time, legwork, and - guess what - money!

I'm one of the other organizers of LETTERBOMB in Leeds city centre where we charge £2 entry. This 'massive' fee is to cover the cost of hiring the room, and if only a handful of people turn up we still have to foot the bill.

So even though some people may like to think that there are financial gains to be made by hosting such events, the fact of the matter is that its the organizers, not the audience who end up out of pocket.

Its ludicrous to believe that the people who run these kind of events (and they are usually poets themselves) are in it for the money.

There is just one rule that you need learn if you are going to dedicate your life to poetry - THERE IS NO MONEY IN IT.

There is no money in poetry, but then there is no poetry in money either.
Robert Graves

I also forgot to mention that part of the Letterbomb ethos is that it's a not-for-profit enterprise. So even when the takings exceed the room costs, the money goes back into the machine - contributing to (certainly not covering) spreading the word and hopefully helping subsidise a number of Letterbomb initiatives which will be of future benefit to the poets who support the event. Letterbomb envisages itself at the forefront of open-mic events, but it can only achieve this through support.

(I understand this this is a discussion concerned with the wider issue of charging admission fees to 'poor poets' - amongst whose company I include myself. The reason for Letterbomb's organisers speaking at such length is because this discussion is a direct consequence of Steve's somewhat naive reaction to Alan Holdsworth championing our efforts.)

Gareth, I'm not naive, you cheeky monkey! I'm someone who has run a very successful poetry group for two years and never charged a penny to anyone for anything in connection with the group. Duh! Because there is no need. It is just poets gathering in a pub reading their stuff and interacting over a few drinks.

Besides, Christine says all that needs saying on this issue with that quote from Robert Graves...
"There is no money in poetry, but then there is no poetry in money either."

And didn't Graves hit on one of the best poetic concepts ever when he wrote 'Friendship at First Sight'?

And there you've hit the nail on the head. 'Just poets gathering in a pub, etc'. Our event differs to yours in that it takes place in an inner-city venue which costs £££. To which you may well respond - "well host it somewhere else", but the fact of the matter is there's nowhere in Leeds where we can host such an event for free. If you really see yourself as a philanthropist, and if you're really such a mover-and-shaker, how about trying on our behalf? How can you presume to dictate that event organisers shouldn't charge admission when you've never been to their event, never seen what their event has to offer, and have no intention of attending anyway?

You're opening statement implies that you're genuinely interested in reconciling why organisers have to charge admission. Your most recent statement utterly disproves this, suggesting instead that you believe that your way is the only way.

Perhaps you can run your event without paying for the facilities. Perhaps it costs you nothing to market your event. Perhaps you don't market your event because you have an intimate core group who attend religiously. To be quite frank, I don't care. Your circumstances are different to ours, and they should be treated as such.

In closing, I've only ever been to one poetry open-mic which didn't charge admission. That too was in the back room of a pub over a few pints. And I got what I paid for.

Gareth, there's no way I'm venturing over the Pennines. I know how grim Yorkshire can be - I used to live in Hull.

Don't be so ready to do down and belittle the Bards of New Brighton - or me. You've never been to one of our sessions - and you've never met me.

I, and I'm sure anyway else reading this, will be able to see that you're being a tad hypocrital with that last remark.

Ive got a plan...Why dont you two meet at midnight on Saddleworth Moor and duke it out....I will bring a poetry dress for you each to wear and we can all stand around sipping from a coffee and scotch filled thermos writing poems about it......

Oh and its a fiver and a pickled egg to get in....

Haha! I'd rather it be beside a river. Gives me an opportunity to get my Byronic frilly shirt wet. Don't forget to hand out the mokeskine notepads!

I'll give you a lift Steve and our tourer will double as a hearse for the home journey.

And Im keeping all the profit and spending it on whatever I want...

Great idea. Though I'm not sure Steve E. would be happy about having to drive all the way to Brighton.

What was it Harry Enfield said as the money-grubbing Yorkshire businessman?

"Sophistication? Sophisitication? Don't tha talk to me about sophsitication ...ah've bin to Leeds!"

And I'm not anti-Yorkshire ... I'm kindly disposed to all, small, under-achieving Third World nations.

As a Yorkshire-dwelling Mancunian who runs a successful pub poetry night in my home city which does not charge but actually provides sandwiches FREE at half time for the punters (gratis from the landlord of the Salutation Inn - poets are a thirsty lot and we swell the coffers once a month), I feel uniquely qualified to join this debate....but I can't be arsed.

Does it actually need debating , if the venue has costs , then you need to charge , if its given for goodwill then dont charge ,

God forbid that anyone should charge money so that the poets could actually make some money from the game, that would mean they'd have to move out of that badly-decorated damp garrett and actually live off something more substantial than air...

...Even blues guitarists in the '20's had rent parties where they scrapped up the rent for their hovels from each other. But then they weren't pure artists, unsullied by real life, unlike us poets, who all have private incomes and can affored to give our services for free...

(Irony Mode on: FULL)

i was assuming none professional gigs steve

Why is everyone being so narky about this? Someone come up with a new discussion topic - purrlease! What idiot first posted this one? Oh aye, it was me.

i am not being narky ,

this is my natural attitude !! ;)

I didn't mean you... Shoeless. I meant them nowty Yorkshire tykes.

Mind you, I'd be embittered and narky if I came from, or had to live in, Yorkshire.

Thankfully, I was born and bred in God's own county (Lancashire, of course!)

Steve
This might come as a bit of a shock to you, but I'm from the South... IOWight which is a county in its own right whereas once over it was Hants. However all you Northern mainland Tikes look and sound the same to us...

No 'kin wonder the 100 year war went on a bit...

You all say EE by Gum... when I say all of course I mean both tribes... very difficult to tell apart, probably why you wear roses in your lapels... lapels? ... vests

Thought you'd like to know
'ant it turned out nice.

Yeah, Gus, I've been to the Isle of Wight. Nice and kinda old-fashioned. I remember being snogged by a very determined local girl in a disco in the basement of a hotel in Ventnor.

Beats going to some poetry nights ... though of course, I've been snogged at poetry gigs too, specially the London ones.

It was disgusting when you snogged me. Much safer now I'm barred.

Steve, you keep saying you lived in London - but I never saw you when I lived there!

I'll be the ticket tout.
Malpoet, I didn't know you were that determined in the basement.

Paul, I lived at the Angel Islington, from 1992 to 2001 (mind, for a two or three of those years I was also in Scotland and Yorkshire for long periods).

I started to write and read/ perform poetry, lemme see, from 1993 through to 1995, I guess, at 'Poetry of My Shoulders' at the Samuel Pepys pub in Hackey Mare Street, also quite often at the Foundry, Shoreditch, and a few times at a place in Elephant and Castle, the name of which I can't remember now.

Also I think I went to poetry a couple of times in an upstairs room at a pub on Cambridge Circus in W1.

I was also a member of London Voices writers at Exmouth Market and Green Ink Writers in Islington.

I started doing poetry after I was made redundant from my writing job at the old ORACLE teletext company. Just bought a frilly blouse and started to do poetry ... until I'd blown all my redundo money!

Were you around in London during those years - 1993 to 1995? Where did you perform? When I met you briefly at the Tudor you were familiar to me, but I thought I remembered you from the Dead Goods in Liverpool, not London.

In reply to Mr. Regan, I'd like to say I agree that an admission charge isn't always a good idea. However, for some events it helps support groups and keep them going.

Personally, I do think that some events just are not worth their entry fee. I've been to a few that have charged and really did not enjoy it. One of those charged only a pound and it was just awful.

In short saying DON'T in very loud and large capital letters isn't right. Some events charge for the right reasons and the right level....others, well the less said the better!

Mug 'em on the way in.

Or maybe try 'Voluntary Admission Fees' like in Salisbury Cathedral. When youo see the sign and then the desk with the tills you know that Voluntary doesn't really mean voluntary, rather it means: 'Give us some money to make the church richer even though we are gonna charge you again for viewing our tower'.

But then if they did that they'd need the large and odd looking security guards.

Christine D; ...no poetry in money...?

Where there's muck,
Me little duck,
There's brass; I know,
It's bloody crass,
I smell a stink,
And hear it clink,
Nudge nudge,
Wink wink.

Actually - the quote is not mine - but from Robert Graves. And perhaps my intent on posting it has been taken the wrong way - what I meant was: there is little or no profit to be had from a poetry evening, so I don't think the organisers of such events are in it for the money. In any case - I think it is perfectly reasonable for them not to be out of pocket and therefore charge an admission fee to cover costs.

I may be in a minority here, but I also think it is perfectly reasonable for someone - anyone - to make a living from any creative art, or the showcasing thereof. Where did this idea come from that it is ok for an electrician or a teacher, for instance, to charge for their services, but anything artistic is done purely for the love of it?
I am an actor, I've spent years learning my trade, and thousands of pounds in order to develop, hone and publicise the skills which I have. I have appeared in many, many productions where the 'tech' people have received a fee, whereas the actors work on profit share (there's never any profit).
Frankly - if you can make a profit, or even scrape a living, in the arts - good on ya!
Cx

Seems to me that a lot of this comes from a kind of misplaced idealism - as if poets are some kind of angel dispensing free goodies to the populace. It stems from the days of patronage.

If you want to do publicity, maybe pay the readers something, or you have to pay for a venue, why should you be out of pocket? And why is there something wrong with actually making money from poetry? It's better than running guns to the military.

Christine. I totally agree with you on making a living from the arts.
That was just me trying to be creative with my 'negative' head on...????

'Shall I compere thee to a summer's day....?'

Only joking. : )

I dunno about any other displaced Northerners down here in the softy south but, apart from central London, there seems to be bugger all about down here in terms of 'Slams', general get togethers of like minded souls and the like. Oop north it seems you could throw a stick and it would bounce off someone on his, or her, way to a poetry gathering...especially round Liverpool way.

The Home Counties seem to be an arid desert in comparison...unless anyone can tell me otherwise?

Jx

I agree John, I was out saturday on my way to town I called in to a brief session at the bus-stop some 'poetic banter' there, then over the road the Pub (The Derby) a Barmaid was giving it 'large' with a mouthfull of praise to a football team- I grabbed a taxi and drifted around town... several events were underway that needed interveaning...I got involved with a couple who 'blessed-my-socks' for an hour, when does this mighty fun ever end?
ps
Had to crawl back into my bed 4 am with Larkin and the giggles!

John

I realise that Oral Cabaret has just left St Albans for sunny Watford, but I think the Home Counties are getting there (slowly, I admit). The www.rrrants.com team are putting on some good sessions in and around the Chilterns, whilst slightly further afield, Milton Keynes has Poetry Kapow and the brilliant Tongue In Chic.

Plus Cambridge now has Upbeat Open Mic (not been yet, but am going on Thursday).

So... Home Counties: the new Wigan?

<quote>C) In reference to a point made by Steven (Mr Waling) I think what is being spoken about is charged entry fees that those running event take. Not fees that are being allocated to the performing poets. </quote>

Yes, but why aren't they allowed to make any money at it? You go to a music venue, you pay to go in. You go the theatre, you pay to go in. Similarly with the cinema. Why does poetry have to be the poor relation?

Well, The Write Out Loud Tudor event this Thursday is free.

You get a good stage, professional sound engineer, microphone and some lovely velvet blue curtains as a backdrop.

Starts 8.30pm. Hope to see some of you there.

The blue velvet curtains make me swoon.

But what you are saying is that the performers should be paying to perform their own stuff, their own material with their own voice out of their own time.
------

Ah now, I was talking about the punters, not the performers... they should (where possible) be paid. But the punters should pay.

If we're talking just read arounds or events which only performers go to, then that's something else.

----

I mean a lot of places don't even require a microphone, so where would the money be going and for what purpose?

-----

The writer - so he/she can eat - the organiser - so he/she can eat...

I mean, that is if you want your artists to eat...

Now we have our poetry session on a Monday, which is a quiet night at the Puzzle Hall Inn, but we also have a mix of guest and Open Mic. We don't have a float and we don't charge for entry but we pass a hat in the interval and this goes to the guest to help with his or her expenses in coming. Perhaps because we have guests, we get people coming to listen, so its a mix of poets and non poets, around 15 to 20 on a good night. It is in the pub, not in a side room, so we have a mike, in order to contend with raised voices at the bar next door. The Landlord is happy to have a room full of drinking folk, so he wouldn't dream of charging us.
Write Out Loud have a website to support. They don't ask much for entry. People waste more on the lottery on adaily basis, so that a few dopes can get super rich. That's more worth worrying about.

Freda... I think the Puzzle's financial arrangements are fair for your event and also WOL's arrangements work for them.

Okay, I'm going to throw this one out there and see what comes back.

I don't like the idea of charging entry myself.

I think poets should be paid something (if they are a "featured poet", "special guest" or are doing some kind of special set).

When you give something away for free you do automatically devalue it....and people get used to it being free.


Bearing all of that in mind I am considering not charging entry, but running a raffle each month at The River View Open Mic, and using the proceeds to pay a guest poet (a fixed amount, any excess goes toward next month's prizes/promotinal materials). I think that it is the best of both worlds. Poets get paid, Organiser covers costs.

Opinions? Comments? Tomatoes (There are some at the back there somewhere....they are next to the rotten eggs)?

I think this is a good idea i have no problem putting a few quid in considering where it's goin,

I think it depends on whether its poetry for entertainment, poetry as a public service, or whatever... Poets *should* be paid for their work, and this usually has to come off the door (i.e. entrance fee) at a gig, for example. I pay all my performers - but then, I charge poets who want to do the open mic section, tho its less than other audience members, as they are contributing to the night. If I let them in for free, I wouldn't be able to pay the billed poets; and if I billed everyone, again the door take wouldn't cover all the fees...

In Wales, Academi recommend set fees for poets, and in order to obtain funding, I generally stick to their guidelines.

I am all for free events, however, But agree about "free" things being devalued... It has to be a balance. Some free events, some events with a fee - poetry is for everyone, Ive done plenty of charity and community events for nowt, but poets have bills to pay, too!!! :)

hay
suck
this
in your rhythm
shtick

The night I run in Bolton (which is on hold) 'Poets and...' for example does charge a pound for admission but for that's for the food we put on...

It does annoy me sometimes however when you go down to a night in Manchester, and they have a special guest on and you are given barely chance to fart if you want to perform and have to pay a couple of quid just to get in.. I've never felt comfortable with that