Hi guys, hope I got that right, but I'm sure you'll tell me if I haven't, blame it on being nearly 10mths pregnant anyway!! Thats my excuse.

What's going on? I have been dipping in and out of the site and there is normally some heated or at least tepid discussion, which poetry aside drew me to write out loud because people felt that they could say what they felt openly and honestly ( and not be afraid of retribution etc ) and post their poetry, some of which held their deepest thoughts and/or their wildest ideas.

Where have you all gone? Have you been in hibernation for the winter? Where are the comments on the poetry that is written? Hope it is just hibernation for the winter, would be a bitter shame if everyone was afraid of commenting because of a general misunderstanding of the written word. It would be the death of this site, and its sad to say that although the posts go up over the months, the comments seem to have gone down, and the discussion not quite as lively as it used to be.

I browse through and find apologies for people saying what they think, even longstanding members of the site, and you know who you are and are generally very vocal, or you were. Please enlighten me - anybody - and tell me why is this site in a state of discursive apathy!

So you've noticed it too...

A number of intelligent, thoughtful inputters seem to have retired... I do miss them as they brought colour, vibrancy and humour to the site.

I could hazard a guess as to why they retired and why people are commenting less but would make myself even more unpopular. I'm sure you can suss that one out for yourself Nicky, by just taking a look.

Glad to hear from you and I'm delighted that the pregnancy is going well.

xx

You are supposed to be resting! But you've got a good point. As for commenting, I think overkill in the number of one-poet-postings is a factor. There is so much to scroll through, the reader gets almost annoyed, and nearly apathetic. There should be a clear policy of limitation, generous but particular. Also a limit on multiple postings at any one time. I, myself, do not look forward to coming on line as much as I used to; I feel dumped upon. This is why I give Poemhunter a complete miss.

Discussions seem to have become just plain silly, too clever by half to see which contributor can out-quip the other, with little or no relevance to any original point or question. Strong, related points of view were a tonic before.

Hi Nichola,

Are we all in a state of discursive apathy? Good question; and I have to largely agree with the responses already posted. For me though I guess there's a little more to it than that.

Yes, if I'm honest, I have become disenchanted with those bloggers whose conviction is that quantity and regularity of posting equals quality. There seems to be a desperation in some to stretch their fifteen minutes of fame into a 24/7 me-athon. It sometimes feels like I am panning for gold on a spoil-heap on the banks of the Amazon - with a teaspoon. I am all for freedom of expression and would be loathe to see blogs restricted in any way, but it seems that a few people have no concept of self-restraint.

As for discussions; it doesn't seem like they are discussions any longer. It sometimes feels like it is almost a crime to hold an opinion, such is some of the vitriol returned in the form of personal abuse when a point of view is aired. I have watched discussions unfold where (depending on its usefulness at the time) political correctness has been used as either a Japanese water torture to slowly and repeatedly erode someone's will to live, or conversely left someone accused of over-sensitivity. Other discussions have quickly wandered off the subject and deteriorated into little more than personal abuse and accusations and a morbid determination to have not only the last word, but the most words.

There seems to be little good humour, tolerance and respect for the right of contributors to hold contradictory points of view. Diversity is met with dogma and discourtesy and the concept of politeness and civility has seemingly, in many cases, been discarded. Yes, sometimes it feels like holding an opinion, or even an idea, risks being buried under the avalanche of self-righteous "how dare you" invective.

There even seems to be "snipers" in the blog postings these days - those who seemingly don't wish to enter into discussion directly, but would rather take pot-shots via their own blog postings and retire to the sidelines.

So I guess it's not so much apathy for me as disenchantment. Disenchantment at intolerance, egotism, pettiness and the failure to remember that somewhere, on the far side of that screen, are not disconnected, remotely-controlled avatars, but feeling human beings. Perhaps (and I hope I'm wrong) this site is simply a sliver of society's broken mirror.

Anyway, may I wish you every happiness for your forthcoming joyous event!

Regards,
A.E.

I took a break from WOL a month+ ago and have found getting back into it difficult for the reasons Cynthia highlights. Too much self-indulgence by a few in their blogging, swamping the good stuff, and discouraging any search for it. Admin please do something!!!! There have been several suggestions over the months for an approach to the problem, any one of which is worth trying, rather than persisting with the present imbalance in the Quantity-Quality equation.

I'm not sure the discussions are quite as bad as Anthony thinks, though there has been a dip it's true. There is some negativity and some nonsense. But he has started some good ones in his time and his contributins are always worth reading. So are many others. Hopefully it's cyclic and will pick up again.

It seems to me like blogs are the central issue here, with discussion feeding off it.

I understand from Admin that originally the blog section was never intended soley for the posting of poetry. It seems to have evolved into that function over time. There are therefore no hard and fast rules about how people should use it.

Judging from the opinions expressed below and many more that I have heard out and about, a lot have charm has been lost by the recent rapid explosion.

Perhaps we should consider having two blogging areas. One for poets wishing to post in excess of 3 poems a week (or a number deemed reasonable) and another for poets who prefer to occasionally post. As things stand, there seems little point in bothering to blog, since your work disappears so quickly. As Nicky points out, less people also comment, which makes it all seem a bit futile. This should satisfy both camps. No-one is excluded from posting and fans of prolific poets will know just where to find their work.

Well we are aware of the problem and agree with your analyses, particularly on the quantity versus quality issue.

My instincts say that anyone wapping a poem a week in there is not putting their best iamb forward for consideration. But obviously that is not the issue for them. Somehow, our non-judgemental approach does not really work on the site as well as it seems to - largely - on the nights. If contributors think it is OK to bung stuff up there that is really work-in-progress, then they are doing themselves a double disservice. Firstly because they are not representing their best work, secondly they are reducing the chances of getting it considered and commented on.

Basically what you are saying is we are creating lower grade ore than previously.

What can be done?

Would limiting everyone to a single blog post per week be the answer? Or do we need to section areas off for different genres of poems, or themes, or...?

We are developing software to enable you to create your own space and invite "friends" to look at your work; at least, to choose what is open to the public, what is shared with pals. Different groups can have their own "space" with blogs and comments, etc. BUT, that is going to take time to develop and install. Another couple of months or more.

Any suggestions would be gratefully received, though solutions will not be instantaneous.

Nicky, get some blooming rest. Good luck with your confinement.

When I joned WoL I enjoyed reading every poem but now I just dont have time to see it all. There is too much. I therefore make a decision on the first two visible lines which an awful confession to make but true. I agree with Julian et al but even wonder if once a week is too often?
I dont think Nicky should rest in pregnancy though,except from excessive physical work, its a physiological state. Nicky's mental functions should be good: best wishes with the birth and baby!

Just a quickie from me. I am a new(ish) kid on the block. I joined WOL last November (I think.) And it has changed my life. I'd just started to write poetry. I have been very lucky with all the support and nice comments etc since joining. I can't help writing a poem almost every day. And I can't always tell which are good and which not very good. If I could only post one poem a week I think I'd go crazy. What do I do with them all? I can see the problem, the site is a victim of it's own success. It is really terrible if "old hands" are leaving the site. But things evolve. In my village we have an art group with members who've been in it for thirty years since it started. When there was an influx of new members the older ones were annoyed. They wanted to limit the number of new members. But if that happened the whole thing would be dead on it's feet in a couple of years. I know WOL is different but be careful for what you wish for. That's all for now.

No-one is saying that new members/fresh blood should not be welcomed Ann. We are just saying that it is hard to find the motivation to read anyone’s work when such large numbers of blogs are posted from individuals. That impacts on new members as well, whose work might well be drowned amongst it. I understand your desire to post your work. I love posting mine and receiving feedback – it gives a certain buzz.

Going back to your point Julien, I am glad to hear that Admin are looking at this issue and looking for a sensible way ahead. I don’t particularly want to see too many ‘friend groups’. If we wanted to do that we could all post on Facebook and pat each other’s back for ever and a day. Much as I love comments from friends, I always feel pleased when someone I don’t know comments on my work. That way I feel I’ve touched someone, not by my personality but my poetry or ideas.

The way ahead for me would be a rule of 2 postings (max) per week. In addition poets could have the option of posting a message once a week, listing all the additional poems they have written with links to where those poems can be found. That way, people have the choice about whether they want to trawl through them. It leaves the blog section clear enough for us to see and appreciate the work of new members to the site as well as those who post occasionally.

You would have to communicate this etiquette to new joiners though – the welcome blurb would therefore have to include this.

Food for thought anyway….

I agree with Isobel - no surprise there ; )

Yes Chris, I like what you have to say. I think we are broadly in agreement - and a monthly quota is more logical - that way we can pack 'em all in before we go away on our hols....LOL

I can't see how this system would offend anyone either, since people who want to air more than 8 poems would have that opportunity via the link. The 8 sample poems would give people a taste for the poet and for whether they want to read any more.

Let's all cross our fingers...

Why not just make it really simple. The opportunity presently exists for anyone to put absolutely anything on their profile page - and to edit that page as often as they like. As far as I am aware there is no limit as to how many poems they can present there. If everyone was given the opportunity of say two or three (or any other number to be decided) "main blog" entries per week, there would still be the opportunity to present more than one poem at a time, or to edit/change that entry for new work, as and when they wished, or to link to other work on their profile; therefore the only thing that would change would be the volume of new blog entries - the issue that seems to concern everyone the most. Nothing would be being restricted (except for the number of new posts) or taken away from anyone; anyone could still post as much or little as they wish, albeit in a slightly different way. Friends and fans (do poets here have fans?) can still follow their idols and everyone should still be happy.

Yes? No? Maybe?

Regards,
A.E.

Agree with you also. This might be the easiest step forward since it wouldn't involve programming - it is already there. The only problem would be the date order. At the moment it shows oldest first. It would have to be reversed to show newest first - which doesn't always showcase your best. If they could programme a sort button that would be the perfect answer - like you have on emails...

Good poetry - in whose opinion?

Work in progress - Isn't it all?

Snipers - Don't make me laugh, it's cathartic poetry!

Points of view - Yep! We all have 'em!

My views - Friends lists and groups? Go away!
Use profile page for poetry and bio.
Use blogs for airing thoughts of the day, plugging gigs and other events poets might find useful, plug latest book or a link to updated profile with new stuff. Post anything but poetry.

Gone for a while (maybe) once budding poet, caring, sharing, feeling person.

Well done Nicky, you got 'em going again. :-)

ps. Are you not aware pregnancy is only supposed to be a 9 month period in humans?
Be well, be very happy but most of all, be you. xx

Why don't you just have done with it and have an "Elitist Best Poems - took me ages" section where you can all put your perfectly handcrafted concoctions for our delectation and let the rest of us poem-addicts carry on writing and letting rip to our hearts content in our bit. I just feel offended by this idea that if you write more than one poem a week (or you're only happy with one poem a week) all that you do write must be of poor quality. Not so, IMO. xxxx

Just thought of something else. Downside of poems on poet's profile page is that we don't get to put an image on with the poem. For me, that is a strong part of the poem. I spend ages choosing a photo or whatever to go with each one, and I think it makes the whole poem experience more interesting for the reader too. (And if I could only put one poemblog on a week, no more Dance Around the Kitchen it's Sunday! Boo Hoo!)xx

Having read all this I think I will keep replacing my "sample" with my new work each time and forget about the blog section in future.

Hi Graham. The only trouble with that is we won't know when to look for your new poem. Well, I guess we'd go to poets profile page to see who'd updated their profile recently. But I like your stuff and I wouldn't like to miss it. God, I think I preferred discursive apathy to this! Feel like I need a lie down. Love and peace etc.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Ann - on the other discussion thread you mentioned that the internet was a vast area, capable of storing vast quantities of work.
I do not think that the issue here has anything to do with storage – it is about the stamina and receptiveness of the average human brain. Most people don’t have much time and pop on here when they can to view work from a selection of poets. To have to plough through reams of poetry from one poet is off-putting.

I do not agree with your stance about elitism either. You seem to be saying that ‘good’ poets are trying to marginalise weaker poets. I would classify very much of your poetry as good but would still rather read a selection of other work (including weaker poetry), than your entire portfolio. Maybe I should use an analogy…
Clematis is a beautiful plant, but if allowed to spread willy, nilly, it stifles other plants. There are probably better analogies – I’m not much of a gardener.

Graham, I am sorry if anything in this discussion has upset you. Sometimes when trying to effect change, harsh things have to be said. I would be sorry to see your poetry restricted to just profile page, also. You and Ann are both great contributors, over and beyond the blog section. You contribute to discussion and are generous in your commentary of other poets. Surely this issue can be resolved in an adult way without everyone falling out?

I must admit to be honest sometimes I can get a little put off by seeing the same names appear constantly in blogs as it is easy to just think not again and move onto the next.
I tend to have a look most days before I start work for 5 - 10 mins and I can keep up, but if you only come on once a week - there is possibly dozens off pieces to go through and there is only so much the human brain I think can take. Whether people need limiting or not is not for me to decide but it's a point certainly to discuss further.

In relation to my own work, I hold stuff back sometimes for magazines and stuff or for books (like my book 'Return to Kemptown') and to limit myself to usually no more than 2 or 3 poems a month.

HALLELUJAH Isobel : )

I seem to have unwittingly appeared to be upset. That's certainly not the case. I came at it on the basis that the best I could do was one piece of work per month (if that) and it is quickly buried on the blog. I would therefore probably be better served to use my profile+the link to my poems-for-rosie blog as my showcase etc.

I will still be trolling through the blogs for others' work that I value and will still comment and enter discussions too.

WOL to me represents one of the most interesting poetry sites available and I wouldn't miss it.

I'm relieved to hear your explanation Graham - I thought you may have taken some comments out of context.
Your further comment just goes to strengthen the argument of those wishing to restrict blogging to 8 poems per month or less. If we could all stick to that, then your poems wouldn't be lost amongst the tide. I don't honestly think that soley posting your poetry on profile would be a good way of getting it read. Whilst a smattering of it is in blogs, people can decide whether they like your style and go to profile to read the rest.
This whole issue isn't about repression, it is about containment, for the greater good of the site.

amen

Hi Nicky... nice to hear from you and glad all is going well for you. Nice to see you too Anthony its been too long and Ive missed you!
Have to agree with everything said on here regarding too much blogging, for us that are not so prolific and take absolutely ages writing and editing and fine tuning our work, its really discouraging to post it and find it`s disappeared underneath ten tons of multiple blogs from one person within a couple of hours!
Cate xx

We seem (as usual) to have wandered away from the original topic of discursive apathy, and now appear to be discussing how to improve (?) the blog system. Oh well, never mind.

Ann, I'm sorry you seem to have taken this discussion and its consequent thoughts and suggestions rather to heart. I for one would never wish to suggest that anyone's poetry was less than worthy of gracing our fair blog, least of all yours. I have enjoyed reading all that I have seen of your work, from the lighter, fun stuff to the more serious and considered - and I think you have a lovely voice and intonation in the accompanying audios you have posted.

As for the better/ worse poets/poetry debate surely that's just simply a matter of personal taste? I know, and freely admit that I've been guilty of posting some absolute drivel on occasion; in fact on most occasions.

The issue cannot be about quality, elitism, best poems or whether one can write one good poem in a year - or ten in a day; although I have to say that I still feel I'm struggling to write one mediocre poem in a lifetime. Who's to say what's good or bad, and, more to the point, what are their qualifications?

Imagine if you will that the main blog is the stage of The London Palladium, and that the production is The Royal Variety Command Performance. WOL has, undoubtedly for its adherents, (and for many and varied reasons) gained a modicum of prestige as a place to air one's work for perusal by like minded scribblers. Consequently there are perhaps hundreds of acts waiting in the wings for that opportunity to strut their stuff. The acts vary in their appeal and scope, from the Pavarottis and Peter Kays, through Chinese circus acrobats and prestidigitators - all the way to Herbert Blenkinsop and his performing slug. (Apologies to any Herbert Blenkinsops out there.)

As the audience you have perhaps limited time to watch the show or its excerpts. Would it then be better to see a fair proportion, indeed a "variety" of turns for your delectation, or to find that Pavarotti, the Chinese acrobats or even Mr Blenkinsop and Albert (that's the name of his slug) are hogging the stage? And I guess that's the issue really - there is only one stage, at present.

I don't have a great deal of spare time, certainly not as much as I would like, and since the volume of blogs has increased almost exponentially of late I've found it difficult to read and give thought to (let alone comment on) those poems and poets whose work I have enjoyed - including yours incidentally.

I love poetry, it means a great deal to me, both reading and now again putting pen to paper in my own humble attempts. I believe we all, and the wider society, benefit greatly ffrom all forms of creativity. I found WOL almost accidentally and immediately became interested in both the work I saw here and the personalities behind it. Like you I enjoyed the participation in giving and receiving comments and appraisals, the banter in discussions and the general feeling of being able to trade thoughts and ideas with all kinds of people from all kinds of places. Oh, and I freely admit that like everyone else here it does my fragile ego no end of good when someone says they enjoyed my scribbles - why the hell else would I post it for the world to see? Yes, we all of us have egos or we wouldn't be here.

But, whether it's Pavarotti or Mr B and Albert, I guess most of us are disheartened when someone posts a long string of poems on a block of seperate blog entries, or posts several new entries each day, thus curtailing possibly either Pavarotti or Mr B's stage time and adding even more to the ever expanding list of work to read. For me it is becoming impossible, and defeating the object of why I first made my tentative steps onto the site.

Now don't get me wrong here, I'm not comparing anyone to either Pavarotti or the illustrious Mr B (and Albert of course, although I do currently have said mollusc in training.) However, until there is an alternative, or second stage if you like, it might a thoughtful gesture to at least think about the number/frequency of blog entries that more prolific posters are making. And no, I'm not going to empty my perambulator of childish amusements and toddle off to some far quarter if it doesn't happen; it simply means that I will feel less able to participate in something I enjoy.

I agree, it's not a problem for everyone, as I said we all come here for a variety of reasons, but there are obviously some contributors for whom the sheer volume of postings presents a difficulty in terms of time and opportinity to participate as they wish. All I would ask for is a degree of tolerance, understanding and perhaps a thought for for how the site might give equality of opportunity to all who wish to participate. In saying this I would welcome any thoughts or suggestions you may have.

Best regards,
A.E. (and Albert x)

Just wanted to add a little bit that I had considered but forgotten (it's my age you know.) There are those posters who simply post - and seldom comment. I have mentioned this before, but on another site there was a gentleman's/ladies' agreement that posters ought to provide at last three comments for every piece of work they enter. It made the site a much more friendly and inclusive place to be.

Have to go now, Albert is screaming for his lettuce.

Chris, I find your 'highlight of 8' poems per month an excellent suggestion, leaving a venue elsewhere for the outpouring of multiple blogs. If the 'extra' poetry is expected to be good, readers will follow these postings to enjoy as well, and comment upon.

I do not think the main BLOG site is meant to express 'works in progress'. Most poets need to do more work themselves before pitching a poem into the public. I believe this recommended limitation will raise the general level of craftsmanship in presenting personal insights. And it certainly distributes quality space more equitably.

And, yes, these 'points' should be clearly stated in the entry forms, as policy. You can't expect new members to have followed these discussions.

Why do we all write as tho we're the buried and not the buriers? Why do we all seé ourselves as the kwality poets and not the dross?

I love WOL. I love WOL -like a woman seen across a crowded room who returns your glance with eyes that open on a sea of possibilities into which you might dive or like discovering a hidden door at the back of the wardrobe which you pass through into another world , a world where the wild things are, a world where there are few rules a world of poetry. I do not walk into Waterstones exclaiming there are too many books please stop writing them as I will never be able to read them all and some of them are not very good. Writing poetry is not like producing greenhouse gases it will not change the climate. It will not lead to the end of the world. I am sure there are technical things that could be done to speed up the browsing and all credit to the WOL team for what they have created so far. I like the idea of creating different blogging areas like rooms into which you can wander quickly leaving if it’s not to your taste but please don’t limit the postings please keep encouraging people to write

I don't know about you lot but I fancy a jam butty.

No-one is discouraging poets from writing E. Dowd. We are merely suggesting that there should other areas available for them to place it so that blog space may be more equitably divided. If you didn't have much time and walked into Waterstones to find that most of the aisles were filled with books by the same author - wouldn't you find that a tad tedious?

John Coopey - everyone is being drowned, be they good, bad or average poets - all of which is subjective. If you fully read the discussion thread, you will see that this issue is not about quality - though limiting blogs may have that effect, since poets will probably put their best stuff forward.
I take your point that the thread has been spear headed by people who don't blog constantly. That's because they are pissed off. I think the reasons for that have been amply justified.

Tommy Carrol - yes, I'd love a jam butty.

Like 'a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down'? Or 'Honey catches more flies than vinegar', Tommy? Politics are everything, aren't they?

Well Nicky? Do you still wonder if discursive apathy exists on the site? Seems not. ;-)
You started this thread and now you've vanished again. I hope there is a good reason for this and a positive result with your pregnancy?
Maybe a friend or a relative could post a note here to let us know when the good news arrives. ;-)

That aside, i've spoken to a few regulars over the last few months who, like me, came to realize that we were not producing ANY poetry, good bad or indifferent.
Speaking for myself here, my time on here was being consumed by reading, commenting and joining in discussions. The spark which ignited my inspirational flow was snuffed out purely and simply because i decided to attempt writing by the ''rule books''. This in itself had an adverse effect because writing in syllabic measures and/or metres restricted the natural flow of the words. If that makes me a bad poet or an ignorant one then so be it.
At least i gave it a shot and wasted my time putting in too much effort which was unproductive, unsatisfactory personally and down right dis-heartening from an amoral point of view.

Oddly enough this discussion actually inspired me to pick up a pencil which i quickly replaced with a pen just so i wouldn't erase what i wanted to say.
Here is a contribution, good bad or indifferent and even this might be lost on some readers but might make some sense to others. One thing i will never apologize for is rhyming in poetry and being me.

Nature.

Look at the stars.
How bright the lights
that form constellations
to be etched on our memory?

How strong the prominent
visible to naked eyes?

How elusive, those seen
once or twice
then seemingly gone forever?

How rich are those who realize
in daylight hours
that just because they cannot be seen
doesn't mean that they are not there?

Look at the bees,
swarming around flowers and trees.
A season to gather,
that we might dip in a finger
or a fist into a pot
of natural preservative
against infections and disease.

How wealthy are those who set them free?
How poor are those who swat them!

I love your poem Janet - it is beautiful. If we were talking about flies, would it end the same?

Love the poem Janet...you should post it on the Blog.....Oopps!! did I really say that ha ha....

Good idea Chris - certainly worth a try if it's technically manageable.

Nice to read a discussion thread in which people express strong feelings and sometimes disagree with each other, but in which mutual respect is maintained.

First off-respect to all in this discussion.(a little tact there folks!)personally,I would like some clarification on past contradictions made re this same topic-'someone'once commented(admin? gawd knows!)"people can post to their hearts content"(no pun intended).The same 'person' later on commented that it was a bad idea?? I have been publically and most unfairly singled out for being 'guilty'(ha!)of shovelling on,too many poems /wordsmithings/whatever,in what I see clearly as a very tactless way.And that
'person' has the nerve to self title as being
intellectual(yeah rite! to that)I can respond fairly as long as people use discretion.And I am more than happy to help resolve any 'offence
to anyone or the site itself-that is the last thing-I-want to do.Is there nothing to be said for being regular-ish in attendance on blogs to help keep them alive.At times there is a sweet F.A. number of people on.I realise on a personal level, most times,I actually see now that I am defeating my own purpose by shovelling on what-I-know most times are lesser quality poems/? not implying the need for sympathy but my shit education has been a very frustrating hinderance to progressing towards better work.I will therefore without doubt now need to slow down and improve on past incapabilities etc.I think John Coopey made quite a levelling comment earlier in this discussion re the readiness of people to assume they are the uppercrust poets.Self anal canal trips(to me) show a poor lack of understanding as to their forgetting when they were on number one struggling square,in turning a blind eye to newer poets in that very same postion.Although I appreciate discussions are neccessary,it always amazes me that the same old guards are on parade(not bitching,curious thats all)I have no heavy probs with that as long as it,s genuinely for the betterment of this site. Chris Co has tried his upmost to TACTFULLY advise me to slow down and concentrate on kerwality rather than rushing shite on-therefore not to fully concede to other peoples TACTLESS pompousity,I intend to meet sincere advice half way.But will the blogs suffer in my long bouts of absence-haha!no doubt-NAY!I think most people would agree that TOO MANY opinions spoil the jam butties-possibly? me? I love lemon curd! let me down gently if I deserve a helpful reply.A passing sincere opinion of this site? DEAD GOOD!lets quit on too many big hats and lean more towards helping the strugglers-like poor moi!-pretty please?? to conclude in same fashion as beginning my twopenny worth-respect to EVERYONE-and wholeheartedly being thankful for lots of stunningly creative writing-wot I can,t do just yet-watch this,but don,t blink-cheers folks-Stef wilde.

Oh my word! Couldn't sleep and thought I'd have a look if anyone had responded to my post from a couple of days ago, to find I have some bedtime reading to do.x

Well, I am half way through, but I do have to say - 'welcome back everybody', haven't felt this cathartic in ages and thank you for all your well wishes, Isobel, Cynthia, Janet,Chris, Anthony - you have been missed -, Dave, Julian - confinement? - I'll more than likely be out shopping and realise I need to nip to the hospital to have a baby - this IS 2010 haha, Francine, Graham, and even Ann -.

Ann, I have not been a member of this site for years, in fact I still class myself as fairly new. I love to write ( when my words come out in some kind of comprehensible order ), and post my poems. I also love to comment and to give, what may or may not be, critical and praiseworthy feedback on poetry written by other poets. My point is that on looking through the blogs, that no-one is posting very much feedback these days,- and there are some pieces on there that deserve it. Also that the discussions that used to be quite heated not very long ago seem to be a mere tepid representation of their former selves. People seem to be afraid of expressing themselves in the fear of some kind of retribution, or of upsetting someone.

All things evolve, but it is a shame to see that people do not critique and pass on valuable knowledge anymore, everything seems to have become a little 'airy fairy', and if we are honest there is nothing 'airy fairy' about writing poetry - it can be downright gruesome at points.

As for 'elitist' ( back to you Ann, speak up for yourself, love it! ), are there elitist poets on this site? I can't answer that from looking at words on a screen, there are good poets, bad poets and the main percentage that hover in the middle - sometimes we whack out a really good poem and the rest of our poetry just props the rest up, but we enjoy writing and posting it. Which, brings me back to the point that without critical comments we can never improve upon that poem that may be mediocre but could be really good if only someone gave us that nudge, or pointed something out about the mood, the timbre, the rhyme, the rhythm or even how many syllables in a line, or why don't you try changing this word to that word etc

As for discussion, it used to be fun, if any offense was taken it used to be discussed and, in the main, a point would be agreed upon or apologies given, or an agreement to disagree. During this a few choice words may have been written, but forgiven and friendships formed.

I do not know what the answer is, I just feel that a general apathy has fallen over the site, which has so much potential for helping, encouraging and developing writers who have the potential to be really good.

If the blogging procedure is changed, does it not take away the spontaneity of the site?. Maybe an idea would be for poets who are prolific or generous ( as I can be sometimes when on form )a general blog for all poetry and a blog that gives the poet the opportunity to put up what they feel may be their best or favourite, maybe one or two, that way all poems are getting aired.

However, I do feel that every poet should welcome critique from their peers and not be offended by it. I sometimes wonder how some of the most prolific published poets would respond upon reading an A-level, degree, thesis or postgrad paper critically analysing and tearing, what may have started off as a poor humble offering to shreds.

Feel free to feedback and rip mine to shreds if need be, those of you that know me know I welcome it and thrive off it.

Stefan, good comment, I really like some of your poetry.

Janet, did you think you would get rid of me that easily? Do you remember 'tear and share'? I Thought I'd leave it a couple of days for an answer after looking at the discussion threads. It's taken me hours to look through it. Love it, and love you lots! love the poem, I Haven't disapeared again, in fact I never disappeared,haha, Isobel, maybe I am that proverbial fly - do you think I may get swatted in the end. Janet, have you blogged it?lol, and it's about time apathy was swatted out of the window. There are so many people here who have so much to give, and share, been that fly on the screen since my last blog xx

A very good morning Nicola(and all)-although just on my way to the urinal(bursting)you have fairly and squarely kick-started my day with a wonderful breath of fresh and kindly air! you could not have reflected my views any better than you have-I,m cutting the waffle now-thanking you for your views also on my poetry-if in my tinpot way I can respectfully help anyone in anyway on this site,that is partly the reason what I and quite a few warm hearted people should be and are, here for-now to see if I can make the bog before the dam burst,s!-Mr.S.W.--xx(enjoy your day Nicola)

So much has been written on this topic that I don't think I can really bring anything new to it, but that’s not going to stop me weighing-in. I apologise now for the length of this!

It seems to me that there are several different discussions here all being lumped together - how many blogs is too many, why are people less active in discussions than before, why aren't comments more constructive (or maybe just more), why aren't admin changing things quicker, why are people so touchy?
And, as the length of this discussion topic shows (well done Nicky - good theme! you've got everybody commenting!) everybody has an opinion they want to share, including me....

So – how many blogs is too many? I think the answer to that might depend on how many people are posting – look at the site stats that are published every month: WOL has over 3.5 thousand members – clearly, if they all decided to post in the same month, one blog a month would be too many. And even if you only consider those who are registered on the Poets’ Showcase, that would still be a hefty 730, how many each then?
Admin (and I’m not speaking with my admin hat on here) have been quite clear, I think: They don’t want to stifle anybody’s creative flow or enthusiasm, whether your output be one perfectly crafted masterpiece a year, or 24 blogs a day describing the bit of fluff you found in your navel – we want you to be able to share it all!
I appreciate it is galling, particularly for those of lower output, to see yours disappear immediately, and time consuming to scroll down through all the navel fluff looking for the odd gem.... but solutions are coming, and just require a little patience, forbearance and respect for each other for a short while longer.

Why are people less active in discussions than before? I think Nicky has shown that a good topic gets people going. Get in there, give your opinion, start a topic, contribute, and don’t let anybody shout you down. Like just about everything else in this life – you’ll get out of WOL just about what you put in.

Why aren't comments more constructive (or maybe just more)? As above really, though I am guilty of this one more than most, I think. For myself, I usually just want to say I like something when something has REALLY moved me or touched me in some way, but I’m quite frightened at times of showing my ignorance so I don’t feel I have much to say in the way of critique. I always am more inclined to read (and comment on) those people who have read mine, who appear to have constructive criticism to give, who are polite etc.

Why aren't admin changing things quicker? They are changing things, and I know there are some fantastic things coming, but we are all working as volunteers. We give freely (and some incredibly generously) of our time and money to help bring this amazing, resourceful, informative, supportive, completely free, inter-active website to YOU. It’s lovely when that is appreciated, and both hateful and hurtful when it’s not. You can show your appreciation very simply – use the site, recommend it, write and let us know if there’s something we do well, and, if you want change to happen quicker – then may I draw your attention to the ‘donate’ button on the home page?

Why are people so touchy? Well – obvious really. Because they’re people. We’re all different, and diversity is one of the things that make WOL interesting. As the site continues to expand, I, for one, hope it will become more diverse still. Writing a comment or response (as opposed to speaking) means that your body language can’t be read, the inflection that made it clear that you were only joking is completely lost, and it’s all too easy to get yourself into a state of high dudgeon in a heartbeat. But the advantage of writing is that you can take a pause, think about how you want to come across, and try and be aware that altering the stress in your sentence can alter the meaning, so that what is clear in your head is not always clear to the reader. Think of it this way: would YOU like a cup of tea, has a different meaning to would you like a cup of TEA.

I liked E. Dowd’s analogy; I think of WOL as being like a pub with different rooms, sometimes quiet, other times noisy, new faces, old friends, and so on – so perhaps we should just put up a notice saying ‘The management appreciate your patience and continued custom whilst we are undergoing renovations. The new extension will soon be up and open for business, there’ll be more space then so in the meanwhile just shufty up in the corner, and try not to knock over each other’s pints’.

I think we are all agreed though that we don’t want anybody to leave, we all wish Nicky & family well for the impending arrival of her baby, and we’re all really pleased to have Anthony Emmerson back – I know I am!

Cx

Chris - may I nominate you as queen of the entire world? I am sure it would be a better place!! I agree with and appreciate all you say. Hoorah! xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Yes - I agree with Ann - that is a wonderful concluding input and one that fills me with hope.
Would just like to add though, that no-one on here is accusing Admin of tardiness or refusal to evolve. The site is obviously under constant development and we are all blessed to have a team that gives so freely of their time.

It must be a nightmare trying to be all things to all men whilst keeping a tight happy ship. I'm sure that solutions can be found that satisfy everyone.

Thanks also to Nicky for giving us the opportunity to air our opinions.

Isobel x

Isobel - thanks for your lovely words about my poem and in answer to your question, yes the ending would be the same for flies too. While flies might be a nuisance, particularly when they decide to regurgitate on your food and seemingly have no other useful purpose for humans like bees have, they are living things. Open the door or a window and show them the way they want to go and they usually do. Even the more stubborn will go with a little coercion, there is no need to kill it. As for the food which you might have to place in the bin - maybe it should not have been left uncovered in the first place.. ;-)
I learned something from my own poem here about some of my own instinctive reactions. Recognizing it is half way to solving it.

TC - Thanks to you also. You very often catch my drift, ha ha.. ;-)

Nicky - no, i haven't blogged the poem. I think it's had its airing so not necessary and on this occasion i wasn't looking for feedback but thanks for your comment on it.
Yes i do remember 'tear and share.' and often buy the bread. When choosing a piece i like to pull it away from the whole, gently squeezing so that it comes naturally to my fingers before chewing and savouring the flavour before swallowing.
I now have the terrible urge to ask everyone ''how do you eat yours?'' ha ha
Unlike Chris, i have no problem sharing my ignorance as has been proved on many occasions on this site. I learned a lot and grew because of it and i know that my poetry by large has improved as a direct result of it. The elitists are those who seem to think they have a right to devour others and not have the decency to reply when asked how they came to their conclusions and/or explain why they would change something the writer thinks/feels is a crucial or necessary point to make in the poem. I find that frustrating and ignorant of the critic. If it's because they can't be bothered or simply don't have the time, they should at least have the decency to say so rather than leave the poet with a bad impression of them.
I have often felt like a fly which has been swatted too.If nothing else, it leaves an awful mess which has to be cleaned up sooner or later and i don't know many people who actually enjoy cleaning shit off the wall or window, do you?

I've probably said too much here. Did i see someone post a comment which invited us to air our views?
Admin do a wonderful job of running this site and i am fully aware that my comments represent only a minor percentage of the whole. I have for the most part enjoyed my time here and hope to continue enjoying my time and experiences on here. At present i am in the process of getting rid of excess baggage and hopefully will re-emerge with a fresh outlook and more positive attitude as well as poetry written from the heart rather than from any text books.
I take full responsibility for allowing some people to influence how i write and apportion no blame to anyone. My weakness has become my strength thanks to the many people i have met and come to be friends with because of Write out loud. You all know who you are and i thankyou sincerely.

This is my last contribution to this discussion but will most likely read from the side-lines as i know others are... Thanks Nicky for starting it.xx

Gladiator's radiators anyone?? ;-)

LOL - you are on the wrong thread for that but I will happily join you in Wonderland Ann - we just need to resurrect Hatta from wherever she has slunk off to...

Here Here Isobel...

Win

Hatta is 'Out to lunch'... Closed... Fermé ; )

Perhaps the cathartic nature of most postings and poets cannot be ignored …

…neither it seems, can their egos.

We just have to face the fact that we have a number of pathological and prolific writers within our midst.

If the powers that be were to suggest a weekly theme or subject within a new blog page. This would surly satisfy, allowing the creative and imaginative a stage upon which to perform and outdo. This would divert the panters and chanters to continue giving poetic vent thus satisfying their lust to expose themselves on an almost permanent basis.

This would of course free up the ‘poets’ still left within WOL to meet in the village phone box and continue to utilise the original poetry blog site in the time honoured tradition of submission followed by considered and structured critique.

Now, how and who can distinguish one group from another, well that is another question and another can of worms ready for the opening …

…of that I have no doubts.

I’m not sure that an invitation to write themed poetry on a different blog would be an answer to this problem Gus. From what I can see, most prolific poets enjoy the freedom of being able to write anything, be it on belly fluff, ripping other poets to shreds, or the meaning of life…

I agree with you that many (me included) write for catharsis and would hate to curtail anyone’s therapy. It seems like Admin are giving the issue some thought. I am hopeful that they will find a solution that keeps everyone happy - so we might as well put this particular can of worms to bed for the moment.

Hopefully they will have enough funds to make all these developments. Well done Chris for reminding us all of the need to contribute financially as well as artistically!

Tags anyone?

Before that particular tin of Heinz Spaghetti Hoops is ceremonially tipped onto the waiting plate, may I confess to being a panter/chanter with artistic/creative pretensions?

Oh go on Gus, you know you want to! Here's the tin opener - go for it!

Regards,
A.E.

Good evening. I am in a state of transverse homeopathy and disco pathology. I've been away on a course.

to quote Gus:
If the powers that be were to suggest a weekly theme or subject ... a stage upon which to perform and outdo.

my response:

If we be the powers, who be you?
OK, Gus, I shall do it...
I SUGGEST A WEEKLY THEME OR SUBJECT.
There. Now, go to it.
And, shouldn't that be <perform and do owt>?

More anon. an' on, an' on...

Oh I do love Julian when he’s pissed…
…those usually locked doors of shy inhibition are suddenly thrown open allowing a cascading infusion of pretty words to fall around us making about as much sense as one of ‘Hatta’s’ dreams.

Well ok… for those who can write to suggested themes, ala the style of the ‘Green Room’… you know the gig run by the Kray sisters… Dominic and ‘Thingy’…

The theme is …PANDORA’S BOX

The winner hopefully will be judged by Isobel and Francine … mainly ‘cos they are lovely chicks… and wouldn’t say no …neither would Cynthia so she can be an additional judge.

Hatta would make an impressive ‘Chair’… but let’s not go there.

The prize is a £25.00 and a cake with bits on.


Closing time Sunday 23rd of May

A lovely chick who wouldn't say no? Has someone been spreading rumours LOL? And will you be contributing anything over and above the subject matter Gus?

I insist on being a chair. And my dreams are linear, lucid, linolenic, lapidary & upholstered.

Je t'adore Gus : )

xxx

Yes of course Isobel, I will be contributing and distributing the prizes and not withstanding I shall submit a suitably themed poem…

However, and for obvious reasons, I cannot be entered into the competition the only reason for its submission will be to demonstrate that I could have won hands down had I entered legitimately.

As a matter of interest I shall be building the cake with bits on myself.


So pleased that Hatta insists on being the ‘Chair’ I really didn’t really want her to sit this one out.

Francine,

Je vous adore trop mon peu de bateau d'amour de joie.

GUS xxx

How exciting! Am just a tad worried about that cake, after recent blog postings. Am hoping those 'bits of yourself' are savoury, if you know what I mean... not too much lemon drizzle for me darling...

Do you suggest the poems be posted on this thread or in the regular blog section - entitled 'Pandora's Box' so we can easily identify them?

That sounds to me like a good idea Isobel... jest blast out the rules and admin to the members an lets go for it.

By the way if you ever saw , and there is no saying you wont, my lemon drizzle...you'd certainly wanna another portion!

XX

Just in case anyone is wondering, I have posted a blog about Pandora's Blog, inviting people to have a bash at the theme.

LOL - I am sure your lemon drizzle is far better than the average lemon drizzle, Gus - but I'll still pass on it for now!

I always end up missing all the fun. Back (again) after having a little twidge of a baby and it's all cake! lol. And I craved cake, still trying to lose about half inch of cake belly, nice to see that the apathetic trend didn't reach anyones bellies, or sweet tooths.
Oh and I callled her Kara Fe (fe is supposed to have an accent on it - faye - but I can't find it on the keyboard)born on the 4th July and weighed a mere 3lb 8oz, (for my girlfriends out there who are interested.)so take care Y'all.xx I'm going to find some cake and I really like lemon drizzle, especially over angel cake.x