I'm not messing with you. I honestly don't know.

Then how do you know what to ask us about?

I was trying to think of something flippant and amusing to write but what actually popped into my head was the nationalistic, tub-thumping, genocide-encouraging work of Radovan Karadzic.

I've never read it but I assume from it's response that is fair to call that the dark side of poetry. If people die as an indirect result of your verse, that's got to be bad.

I'm intrigued as to why you raised this Cynthia. There must have been something that triggered it. I'd love to know what it was. For me, being very literal, I've noticed a couple of poems on here recently which seem to be about killing and torturing women. That counts as being rather dark to me, but I guess I have the wrong end of the stick!

I know my poem 'Detective Novel' is dark, but that's when you start writing from the viewpoint off a dead body - that's dark...

Dark otherwise for me is something that is upsetting to read.. I've got pieces that I've wrote that I won't share that I look back at now and think - that came from a dark place..

Very funny, Julian. Some input would be helpful; I really enjoy talking with you.

Siren,I'm glad you decided against flippancy (other than writers' block!) Your point is very apt. What do you consider to be the 'beast in us', a metaphor used almost as casually as the adjective 'dark'?

Ann, you ask a fair question and offer a reasonable example of your 'take' on 'dark' also. Murder and torture surely must qualify. We seem to be using the term so freely about so many subjects. And yes, I have noticed some poems listed with WOL. It was when I used the term myself in a comment, that I drew back and wondered: What the blankety-blank is 'dark' anyway? It is too strong a term to bandy about. I have a poem about a mental break-down which was described as 'dark'. I thought it was enlightening!

But, Andy, I don't see how finding a dead body is 'dark'. Although the lack of interest in it shows apathy to violent death, and maybe that is what is really 'dark'.

Oh soddit - I can't resist putting my ten penneth in. The question is, I guess, deliberately ambiguous so that we can all put our own spin on it.
There is some very dark poetry on here at times - I would call it gruesome and have no liking for it at all - by that I mean poetry that explores violence, abuse or physical degradation for no apparent reason. That is dark as in horrid.

Then there is dark as in torturously sad because it has been written by someone who has obviously suffered great pain.

In an abstract sense poetry does have a dark side to it. Once you are a poet and see things as poets do, you can't help but want to turn everything into a poem. Like one of Darren's poems highlighted. Something really serious can be going on in your private life, and all you can think about is 'how it might look on the page'... Rather serious implications for all of us really.

Am going to go away now and throw a brick through my monitor!

A good ‘searching’ question Cynthia.

I think much of the answer (there is no right or wrong I don't think) depends on a reader’s own experiences. When I first read Larkin’s ‘The Whitsun Weddings’ I was surprised as to what depth you could mine through his allusion when coupled with any perceptive qualities that a reader, in this case - me (who coincidentally was around the same age reading that collection as Larkin was when he wrote the majority of it) may have. I found 'Sunny Prestatyn' both dark and sinister - I interpreted that particular piece with a typical (if there is such a thing) sex offender's thought process. I've had dealings with such 'people' in a professional capacity and there is always something niggling away at me when I read Larkin's work!

Some of Lewis Carol’s work I find disturbing too - but much of this is from a retrospective knowledge of the man’s (alleged) private affairs. I usually begin looking for the ‘dark’ and sinister motives behind a writer’s choice of words, their semantic values etc before then moving toward the more flowery connotation There is nothing more sinister and ‘dark’ than some nursery rhymes, and the origins and inspiration behind such verse.

I suppose much of what’s been written relies on our own fascination with ‘The Dark(er) Side’.

I’m equally intrigued by the negative connotations that are often attached with the term ‘dark’. Even dark chocolate is advertised with implicit tones of ‘evility’ - which is today’s made up word.

The dark side of poetry is our own deepest, darkest side - if we want it to be or can allow it to be.

Me. I'm the dark side of poetry. That was an easy one. Anyone like to argue? No? Fine, that's settled then.

I am in total agreement with Darren and DG ; )

Could it be anything that hints at the things within ourselves that we would rather not see or admit to?

The darkness comes from within, whether you choose to share that darkness or not I suppose is up to the individual, I choose not to publish darker work (mostly anyway). I would class darkness as a kind of despair from within or inwardly recognised point of view of the poet, Sometimes it can help in a carthitic way to make sense of an otherwise seemingly meaningless Universe. This reference is made with a nod of the head to some of the more inwardly painful works, not the puerile filth that sometimes seems to crop up from time to time.

'Darkness is not a gene
but a response to the
weather of ones walk.
To a life left behind
even for a minute-
the puddle remains
but the shoes are
sodden, the hill is
steep and the back aches
but the sun breaks thru
and a friend meets the way
taking some of the load.
I see level ground
and a tree for shade.'

Part of what poetry does is to explore or reflect things that are anti-life. That, in itself, is usually interesting and even beneficial. For me, it becomes the dark side when what is anti-life is relished, embraced or celebrated

To me, the idea of darkness in a poem suggests something evil, sinister, unwholesome. I think I disagree a bit with you Thermo old friend, in that I don't think sad poems full of pain are dark. Eg, Chris Co's Milly and my droning on bereavement-type poems, they are not dark, for me, though of course there is a lot of despair in them. And I don't think the other kind of poem you describe (now, I wonder which poet you could be thinking of? ;-)) would ever be described as dark by anyone. (Though I guess unwholesome perhaps!) I have just found that recently there have been a couple of poems by women poets on here, about women being tortured and killed which I found unpleasant to read. They, to me were dark. I hope I don't offend the poets, my comment in no way suggests they were not good poems.

Poetry could be described as the dream state of reason. Sometimes it's a bad dream, sometimes it's a nice sunny dream.

Just because someone writes a poem or a story about murder doesn't mean they're about to murder someone; or all detective novelists would be being observed by the police 24 seven.

Steven, it's always great to hear from you. The first comment is generally true, of course. But this second comment seems to have come from 'out of left field' considering the subject matter. How have you related it?

Tommy, are you sure you aren't Irish - or Welsh - or East Indian - or - or -. I'm just teasing. Very fine lines in an all-embracing human way.

Isobel, that'll be the day when you throw a brick through your monitor.

Totally dig you, Dermot. I nearly choked on my coffee I laughed so hard. Had to wipe off the keys.

Darren, it didn't escape me, that reference to 'our deepest darkest side ... if we can ALLOW it to be'. Now that point requires some serious thought.

I think these responses are terrific, and I'm rereading them all several times. Thanks much.

Not fair Cynthia – I think you should give us some idea of what you think. It is a fascinating thread. I have certainly been affected by lots of the comments people have made.
I would agree with Ann that catharsis in one sense isn’t dark. It is a release of pain which, depending on how it is expressed, can be enlightening, evoke empathy and very positive human emotions. I think we are talking semantics here.

I would agree with Dave Bradley that poetry written just to make your stomach churn is dark in the truest sense.
However Darren has made the valid point that the poetry we all write is inspired by our own personal experiences. That should make us all more tolerant of everything since we have no idea just how gruesome those experiences have been.
I have decided that there is perhaps only one subject matter I won’t/can’t ever tolerate. I won’t bang on about it on this thread though.

I would agree that Dermot Glennon is the devil incarnate of the poetry world. Long may he go on prodding us – he can also be amusing at times…

I would also agree with your perception of me Cynthia. I am hopelessly in love with this site and the stimulating people I meet on it...

I've only just caught up with this thread and been reading with interest.
To my mind, dark poetry in the eyes of the reader can have different connotations than possibly the intentions of the author depending on religious teachings (and i say that in the loosest sense possible in relation to the impact religion has on a person) as well as upbringing, outlook on life, maturity and how realistic we are as to what goes on in the world around us. There seems to be many people who think or feel that poetry which highlights the things in life they find offensive as being dark.
I think much of the poetry which explores the 'underworld' or 'hell' is dark but i also find it intrigues me to the point of wanting to climb inside the mind of the author to discover how his/her mind ticks.
I'd love to be able to have a discussion with a writer of such poetry and to ask questions to discover if the poetry came from within him or herself and what triggered it.
Does that make me maudlin? or dark? hmmm.. I wonder!

I feel a poem coming on. :-)

I have been thinking a lot also, about this word 'dark', encouraged by such sincere responses.

For me, 'dark' means any action - physical, mental, emotional or social - that deliberately causes or enforces fear as the reason to conform to a given situation. This definition covers anything I can think of that I would find offensive, i.e. 'dark'. Therefore, any similar act under mutual consent removes the element of coercion or 'darkness'.

I think the teaching of 'Hell' is possibly the cruelest/darkest weapon ever conceived to create fear for conformity.

Then your recent poem The Argument illustrates the real meaning of "dark" to you, I guess Cynthia. I think I'll post my idea of a dark poem tomorrow, but it probably won't conform to other people's idea of darkness.

Dark poetry? That penned by Sauron, the Vogons and Lord Voldemort, or any that has a dialectic with taboos and subjects not considered permissible in practice or open discussion. It's poetry examining the stuff that troubles us, that doesn't fit in with our idea of humanity and morality and decency, and that subsequent generations may condone, appropriate or reinterpret. It's flexible. Like shadows it shifts with whatever illumines the moment. Well, that's my opinion. Over and out.

I like your addition Cynthia. I would extend that concept to poetry which explores abuse of another's basic human rights, for no discernible reason.

I think Hatta has hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. "By the pricking of my thumbs, something evil this way comes" sends a few shivers up my spine (and my thumbs!). But then we have to agree on a definition of evil. (Or was it wicked? Do not have a complete works of Shakespeare to hand.)

I'm reminded of that quote from Peter Cook -

"I go to the theatre (WOL?) to be entertained. I don't want to see rape, sodomy, incest and drug addiction. I can get all of that at home."

It's very quiet round my house! ;-)

It's 'something wicked ...', Ann, and it was written for political reasons ..... now that IS dark.
Cx

Just an added thought to Dave Bradley's contribution here.
We have a choice whether or not we read it, comment on it and draw more attention to it or ignore it, pretending it doesn't exist or occur in this lifetime and by discussing it, are we giving it more credence than it deserves? Or simply exercising our right to choose and right to freedom of thought and speech?

I have to admit, i tend to avoid political discussions in the sense of government politics partly because i don't understand their politics and partly because i'm not really interested in them. If we all did as i do, then perhaps this and other site discussions would come to a complete standstill and so negating opportunity to learn and gain insight as to how someone else sees things.
So for me, there has to be room for an open minded approach mixed in with the opinions of those with their own strong beliefs and those who enjoy just chipping in with a comic or flippant remark. That's life.It's how we deal with it that counts. I suppose negativity could be a sort of darkness too.

Enough of this dark poetry - we want tall dark and handsome poetry! (Scuse the flippant remark Janet ;-)) xx

It's easy to say ignore it Janet but sometimes you've started reading it before you realise just where it's taking you. It's not till you reach the end that you realise it's taking you worse than no-where. Yes, perhaps we should learn to ignore it and not comment. That is something I'm working on. Truly dark poetry definitely puts me off reading any further work from the writer.

And yes - I would agree with you there Ann - or blond and tanned or tall, bald and muscular or.....

Which in effect Isobel brings us back to the question
what is dark poetry?

This discussion has had many different ideas on what 'dark' means to them and it shows how individual we all are because of that.
Dark covers a multitude of subjects. Some dark topics are interesting or even fascinating while some are just too sinister to contemplate.
I wonder if some of the rants of some performance poets are based on their anger of the subject or a kind of cathartic release for their inner turmoil about what goes on in the world. Surely there has to be a voice somewhere other than parading the streets with banners in opposition to things they find dark and offensive and are passionate about.
Take fox hunting as an example. Some would say that's a dark subject so is it wrong to write a poem highlighting it? and would we avoid commenting on it just because we find it dark?
It might raise a few arguments for and against. The question here is do we choose to get involved in the argument knowing we might get upset?
That's what i meant by we have a choice. Is it worth getting upset by anything we can do nothing or very little about?
I often get accused of sitting on the fence in arguments. I say i choose not to argue because i find it upsetting. Have the people won or have i let them win. Does it really matter in the long term anyway? No, because i made a choice and it's up to me to live with whether or not it was the right one for peace of mind and happiness and up to them to decide why they want to argue in the first place. Maybe they are dark in wanting to cause angst for themselves as well as others.
Sorry, got a bit carried away there and maybe went off topic again but it is a kind of darkness because it pertains to the human psyche.

Ann - I'll settle for poetry which adores me and vice versa. :-)

Yes - we do seem to be becoming a bit circular - perhaps we've done the subject in.

Don't think I've ever heard any dark rants. I would agree that rants are extremely cathartic - I love them - but you have to be in the right mood to write them - normally an angry one! I don't think catharsis is dark poetry - we are all guilty of mis-using the word dark in that context.
Would never see political poetry or stuff on fox hunting (pro or anti) as dark either.

Think I'm coming round to Hatta's view on it all. Dark poetry is stuff that is taboo, antisocial, disturbing and disquieting. Thankfully there is very little of it around - I can only think of one or two examples.

Ho hum - that's about it from me.

Dermot Glennon's stuff is really rather dark, but for real darkness look at the poetry of Aleister Crowley:

The Five Adorations by Aleister Crowley

I praise Thee, God, whose rays upstart beneath the Bright
and Morning Star:
Nowit asali fardh salat assobhi allahu akbar.

I praise Thee, God, the fierce and swart; at noon Thou ridest
forth to war!
Nowit asali fardh salat assohri allahu akabr.

I praise Thee, God, whose arrows dart their royal radiance
o'er the scar:
Nowit asali fardh salat asasri allahu akabr.

I praise Thee, God, whose fires depart, who drivest down the
sky thy car:
Nowit asali fardh salat al maghrab allahu akabr.

I praise Thee, God, whose purple heart is hidden in the abyss
afar:
Nowit asali fardh salat al asha allahu akabr.

The 'Wizard Way' is darker, but perhaps too dark for here.

Those three little billy goats gruff and that troll under the bridge! Now that really is scary!!!!!!!