Here is something I wrote. I would be interested in any comments about it.

Liverpool Sidings

Beyond the spoil heaps we will climb,
Where grey leafed shrubs exploit the grime,
And limestone chips are left in mounds.

We stand along the slated ridge,
Beyond the final bypass bridge,
And sling the chips at passing trains.

I some times think it would be bliss
To watch one sure shot shatter glass,
And all the people gliding past,
Leap up with horror, open mouths,
All swept away, like slaves in chains,
With helpless cries, as baying hounds,
While we would stare, like sullen cows,
Laughing inside.

But every time, we miss.

I imagine this being written by some
"angry young poet" - such is the
downbeat content which has been
reflected of late in the reports of
youths hurling stuff off motorway
bridges at passing cars, often with
dire results.
The imagery is sure-footed and tho'
I am not sure about the irregular
"rhyming pattern", it has a power
to shock for its nihilistic POV.

Leaving to one side for a moment the content, I would agree with MCs comments on the rhyming pattern.

I liked the regularity of the first 2 verses. I like the irregular ending because it kind of fits in with the idea that, even in their attempts to destroy, this disaffected youth, fails. It kind of brings home the sadness and pathos in it all.

I think I'd prefer it if the bulk of the third verse followed the same pattern as the first two though.

Re Steve's point, I quite like the immediacy of the present tense personally - though it might be an idea to try to get the first verse into present tense to match the rest.

I like the imagery you have used to describe the mayhem, had the stone ever hit its target. 'All swept away, like slaves in chains' works really well and is original. I like the 'sullen cows' also. Cows have very expressionless faces - its the kind of look you could imagine.

It's an interesting and original idea for a poem. Getting inside the head of disaffected youth. Trying to understand what they get out of it.

Everything I say is just my notion. Everyone will have their own opinions no doubt.

Lovely poetic idea and story but the first verse is a complete mess. Three different tenses in three lines, future (we will) present (where) and then past (left in mounds). Steve's version is worse still...'Beyond the spoil heaps we would climb'. Aaaargh! Ghastly arse about face sentence. 'We would climb beyond the spoil heaps" fine, but, bejasus, none of that back to frontage please.

Personally I would suggest

Beyond the spoil heaps climbed
Where grey leafed shrubs exploited grime,
And limestone chips were left in mounds
We stood along the slated ridge,
Beyond the final bypass bridge,
And slung the chips at passing trains.

I sometimes thought it would be bliss
To watch one sure shot shatter glass,
And see the people gliding past,
Leap up with horror, open mouthed,
All swept away, like slaves in chains,
With helpless cries, as baying hounds,
While we would stare, like sullen cows,
Laughing inside.

But every time, we'd miss.


Bloody marvellous.

: )

Jx

Thanks for the response. You are very kind. I felt a bolshie rhyme scheme fitted the voice. You see these sidings as you leave liverpool lime street, and the piles of chippings which look a bit inviting, although only small. Its true the tenses struggle a bit. Thanks for sorting them out Steve. runs more easily, although I don't like 'exploited grime' it seems to lose impact. The language is obviously not very much in keeping with the character.

Thanks John, more good ideas.
Your first line loses the metre. There were four beats and you have three. Hmm. we often use tenses because we want an extra beat or two and use the auxiliary verbs to fill a beat- as I did by putting 'would' in. If I had started
Beyond the spoil heaps we climb (or climbed) the rhythm is different, with more unstressed syllables and only two real stresses on 'spoil' and 'climb'. So by the next line you are looking to follow a different pattern which sounds quite jaunty and I wanted a sort of sullen plodding sound.

Sorry I put 'will' in and Steve suggested 'would'

Beyond the Spoil heaps we climb
Among the brambles and grime

I've just realised that I know diddly shit about critique LOL.

I think I need to start with a blank page really. Once you are having to rhyme to a certain word it becomes much harder to effect changes without doing a total re-write.

Let's all start doing free verse, then nothing matters... :)

How about...

Beyond the spoil heaps climb
Where grey leafed shrubs exploit the grime

Or, if you want to keep to the 8 syllable count

Beyond the spoil heaps we dare climb
Where grey leafed shrubs exploit the grime

A first line can't 'lose' metre...it sets it. I quite enjoy the lolloping tone it creates...but, hey, that's just me. It's your poem.

If 'plodding' is what you want, then go for it...but I can't think of many worse ambitions for a poem than to be 'plodding'.

They were young, they were throwing stuff at trains...what's plodding about that?

Ho hum. Whatever.

: )

Jx

Not sure I understand your last comment John. I hope you are referring to losing syllables. I think it is better to keep it at 8 rather than 6 - 8 gives you that freedom of movement.

I just have a personal aversion to 'archaisisms' in poetry. If it is meant to be written in archaic stylee, then, fair enough, but where is the poetry in the phrase 'we would climb', stuck after the words 'beyond the spoil heaps'. For me (and I stress, this is purely a personal opinion and not meant to be taken as any criticism or attack upon anyone's poetic integrity or ability or any reflection upon their lives, or the lives of others close to them or who may or may not be affected by my purely personal opinion) it is clearly done just to try and resolve the metre and postpone the poetic difficulties created by the first line.


Speaking purely, and utterly personally and owning all my own whatsits, it did actually do Longfellow a lot of harm. His poetry has dated horribly and he sounds like an arse today...although not about face.


:)
Jx

The lines certainly give out a message that tempts another "take"...this is fun, if you'll excuse me. Pse. excuse the occasional omission of punctuation.

Beyond the spoil heaps we advance
Where grey-leafed shrubbery takes its chance
And handy limestone chips remain.

We stand along a slated ridge
Beyond the final bypass bridge,
And pelt at will a passing train.

We like to see it as a duel,
To see glass shatter would be cool,
With passengers leaping up in fear,
Mouths and eyes like frightened deer...
All swept away in silent shock,
Held captive in their rolling stock,
While high above them we stare down
Like sullen cows - and sullen frown...
Cos once again we miss.
Damn!

This thread has been very useful in showing one thing - how just a few tiny words can change totally the perspective of a poem, or a comment even.

MC - your poem reeks of anger with the subject. I prefer Freda's version because, whilst it doesn't seek to justify, it is subtle in its handling of the problem and I like the sadness in it.

The problem is there within our society - like the trains, the chippings and the sidings... Freda just writes it as it is.

I love the last line in the original poem - if all else changes, that must stay. It is futility in a nutshell.

Isobel - you are quite right. My version followed my perception of the original as being from "an angry young poet". As for "sadness" in the subject...I don't see that. What's sad about "laughing inside" at the thought - and aim - of wreaking havoc? I take the words to mean enjoyment of the deed and I've seen enough of that mentality in action to go along with sadness. From a personal POV, I have a hard-nosed suspicion of "we are all victims" in life when dangerous criminality is involved.

Hey this is good of you to work it over like this. I am enjoying this thread.
I want to go back to the point about three different tenses in three lines.
'Beyond the spoil heaps we will climb,
Where grey leafed shrubs exploit the grime,
And limestone chips are left in mounds.'
John said 'future (we will) present (where) and then past (left in mounds)'
Its the kind of thing English teachers say- you shouldn't change tense. Well the 'voice' here is imagining a future adventure, 'we will climb' among shrubs he knows exist there, so continuous present 'exploit the grime' and the piles of chips are dumped, made use of, and replaced by other piles of chips, so that is not continuous present, it is a recurring event: 'are left in piles' Actually its a long time since I used a phrase like 'continuous present' so I may be wrong. Where are the English teachers when you need them?

I am thinking about the 'archaisms point. So if I had written 'we will climb among the spoil heaps'it would have sounded more like ordinary speech? Hm. It would have lost the sense of somebody imagining a possible event.

I was never taught to measure verse by counting syllables, Isobel. I would find it restricting, and I suppose that feels 'old fashioned' to me. I like to use a rhythm based on the number of beats, with the freedom to use a different number of unstressed syllables, depending on the effect. Do people say this is 'wrong'?

Longfellow doesn't sound like an arse. he belongs to an age that liked long narrative poetry. He was experimenting with feminine endings. (I only know Hiawatha) Modernism and the 'New Critics' dumped heavily on the Victorians because they were challenging the mores of their predecessors. We have no such excuse. Modernism is SO 20Century.

I wasn't suggesting that you had deliberately done anything when it came to metre, Freda.

When you study your poem though, I think you will agree that the rythm and beats you talk of, happens to equate to an 8 syllable per line structure, right up to the last 2 lines. Maybe you did that instinctively because you have a musical ear.

I didn't agree with John's perceptions of tense in that first verse. I'd still like to see that in present tense though - just to tie in with the end.

Alternatively - you could make the second verse future tense also - which would then tie in better to the rest.

"We'll stand along the slated ridge...

Isobel you say such lovely things.
I will defend the shift to present tense. This is how I see it.
The 'voice' starts by imagining going and playing out on the spoil heaps with friends. By the time he gets to thinking about the ridge and the trains it is playing like a video in his head. There we are, he says, we stand on the ridge...
He gets involved in what he is seeing and the verse structure tumbles over itself.
maybe its all just excuses for not being more formal.
I am enjoying this so much I have put up another poem. I hope that doesn't make me look too greedy.

Sorry, I was being a bit of a tit about Longfellow. I was raised upon the shining big sea water. I guess I was just being a bit contrarian, although I still don't like the language to be twisted to meet the metre, the metre should meet the language.

I love the idea of a 'tumbling structure'. I like poems that stagger a bit before regaining their composure and then signing off with a bit of dignity or a flourish.

: )

Jx

Me too John

I think you should leave it as it is Freda. I agree with you measuring the metre by strong beats and for me the rhythm suits the poem and the 'voice of the speaker(s)
I saw why you had used the future in line one and, by the way, line 3 is a present tense - 'are'. Yes indeed 'left' is a past participle but it is being used as a verb in in the passive voice present tense. The past tense would be 'were left'.

I also liked the different rhyme scheme /length of verses as, to me, it gave pace to the wanderings of the speaker's mind, rushing the reader towards the 'crime' and then the rather wistful last line. Leads one to wonder what sort of /or lack of morality the speaker had. A sad reflection of some of today's disaffected young people.

Hello Freda,
I’m new to the site and at the moment I doing a creative writing course at Hull University.

We did this type of un-rhyming poem about 12 months ago and at first I wasn’t very keen on it, but after a while they grow on you.

I think this one is great and it took be back 60 years when I did this sort of thing at passing trains. And to put a one line stanza at the end is the icing on the cake. It makes the line stronger and more poignant.

One very little typo, SOME TIMES is one word, and some editors would not forgive you for making a mistake like that.

Keep up the good work.

With all 'male' line endings and a sharp snap closure, this is truly a fully formed poem. The iamb is maintained throughout until the end, which is deliberate. An arrow to the intended crime is snapped by the 'kill' or lack of it in the closure. Don't adjust anything. All is well.

Thanks for all the comments.
Not quite unrhymed, John. The two towards the end that slide away from rhyming suggest missing the target I suspect.

Climb - grime
Mounds - hounds
ridge - bridge
trains - chains
bliss - miss
glass - past
mouths - cows

rhyme scheme
aa b cc d e ff g d b g e

I do confess that 'some times' is a typo. I hadn't noticed it.