Hi Chris,
Unfortunately DGPS has lost its funding and had to leave its office.

But they still run an open mic night at the Everyman every first Wednesday and you would be most welcome to perform your poetry there - just turn up and talk to the lady on the door and she'll sort you out.

It is a great environment and very supportive of first timers so come on down.

Hi Chris

I think a lot of us have worried about plagiarism and though of course it does happen it is, in my experience, very rare.

Sometimes people 'steal' ideas and there is nothing you can do about that in law at the moment. Actually, if you look at poems on this site you'll see that many poets have the same or similar 'ideas' for poems and I'm sure they haven't stolen them.

What sometimes happens is that people subconsciously pick up on words and/or phrases and use them in their poems. But then again that could be down to the Zeitgeist i.e. that word or phrase is gaining wider currency and lots of people are beginning to use it.

By all means post poems on here and you can get various levels of criticism. Hopefully, most of the critiques will give you positive feedback but some people maybe down right negative and/or rude.

Write Out Loud deplores such negative criticism but as this is a public site we can only be reactive by which time the damage may be done.

Even constructive criticism can be hurtful to us sensitive types so be careful what you wish for and think you can handle.

We used to run a discussion thread called "Write Club" that gave no-holds barred criticism but we pulled it as some of the critiques were down right vicious and nasty and, like many 'discussions' here, critics would forget about the poem to attack each other.

We are hoping to bring "Write Club" back in a more formal, regulated way if/when we get some money and resource to develop it.

So, in the meantime, have a look around the site. Read other peoples poems and try to assess yours in the light of what you see. Give other people positive critiques, if they ask for it.

Then, perhaps, you could create a profile on the showcase and share a couple of your poems and see what feedback you get.

Maybe start with poems that you haven't finished or are unhappy with and see what others think and can contribute - you'll quickly find who is helpful.

If you don't want to create a profile, then post in the 'Poetry Review' Section of discussions and tell people what level of criticism you want. http://www.writeoutloud.net/public/newsgroupsview.php?NewsGroupsID=28

You ask "If a poem is very good is it best unveiled via a competition entry or can it be posted to people and "around" and still be successful in such things at a later date?"

Well this is a tricky one. If you post a poem on the Internet then technically it is a 'published poem' and you will find that many competitions do not allow you to enter a poem that has been previously published.

However, I would argue that if you post a work-in-progress piece on here to get criticism etc and then you subsequently remove the poem from the site and rework it in some way. Then the final poem has not been published and is therefore eligible for such competitions.

For a poem to be considered for our Poem of the Month competition, you need to have a profile on the Poets' Showcase and any poems you put in the 'Samples Section' of your profile will automatically be eligible.

Rather than enter competitions right off I would advise the new poet to try to get a poem published in one of the many poetry magazines around.

Many of us find that our genius isn't appreciated by the numb-nuts who run these things but, then again, these are the type of people who set and judge competitions.

Hope this is helpful and I hope that you become an active member here, meet other poets, make new friends and have a great time.

I just wanted to say thank you for the help and support I received when new to WOL. As someone who only writes for my own entertainment and to prevent my brain turning to porridge I'd never really thought about plagarism as such, I was just pleased to find a space where people with an interest in poems would read my stuff and give an honest (though sensitive) opinion :) I suppose if I chose to take things in other directions I'd have to be careful about where poems are published. Keep up the good work.

Hi Chris,
As a member of writeoutloud i've never heard of anyone's poems being pinched by anyone else. The only secure way is to get them copyrighted. (if that's the right term)
but i believe that costs money to do. I don't know if it is correct but someone once told me that if a poem has the month and year as well as signature at the base of the poem, it is as good as any copyright but again it's only what i've been told.
As far as this site goes, have you read the terms of membership and what it says about ownership of poems published by members. It might help you to decide for yourself which way to go.

The only problem i could see if you post your work in blogs for comment or the review section for a stronger critique you will need to be able to set aside your personal feelings towards your work and be able to stand well back from it to assess whether or not it is suitable for you personally and not get hurt in the process. As Paul says, if you invite comment and critique, be prepared for a variation and state the kind of comments which are welcome.

Good luck with your poetry and hope to see some of your work soon. I'll look out for it. It's a good idea to browse the site first to discover where you want your work to be seen and which parts of the site you want to involve yourself in..

Janet.x

Hi Chris

There are no guarantees.

You could copyright your stuff but you would still have to fight a legal battle if someone stole a whole poem, or significant part of it. But this would be true if you had it published or won a competition and someone stole it - in fact they're more likely to steal it, I suppose, if you win a competition.

Let me ask you a couple of questions. Do you read poetry? If so, do you ever feel like stealing a poem? If so why? If not why?

I don't want you to answer these questions but have a think about why someone might want to steal your poetry.

It seems to me that we all think that our poetry is of a high standard (I know mine is) and we don't want to copy someone else's [inferior] poems - (this is a joke - ED).

But eventually the decision is up to you.

Here's a thought. Don't post any of your poems just yet.
Why don't you start by reading, thinking about and criticising some of the other poems on the site - there are enough of them lol.

Other members here have found that by doing this it not only helps other people but helps them in their own writing. It will also help you to (re)assess your own writing.

Good Luck!

With regard to what you are agreeing to when posting anything to the site. See our Terms of use - see particularly para 3.2 which states
"All copyright rests with originating creators"

http://www.writeoutloud.net/public/terms.php

I'm sorry to disillusion you Chris but there has been many a battle in coutrooms over ownership of songs after they've been made famous by someone else who saw the opportunity and seized it.

If it worries you so much, Paul is right, maybe you shouldn't post your work until you are absolutely comfortable and feel safe in the knowledge it is unlikely that anyone would want to steal a poem belonging to someone else but might decide to write a similar one with their own name to it in which case they stole the idea but even then you'd be hard put to be able to prove it and as you said previously, it is unlikely to make them any money or indeed give them any real personal satisfaction of being able to say they thought it up and wrote it.

Please forgive me but i think you are being just a little too mistrusting. I've been in the position where i felt everyone was out to get me. It is a while ago now but i remember the feeling and the worry as if it was yesterday. Learn to trust in small measures and it ets easier to trust strangers and have a little more faith in humanity. With respect and due kindness.

Janet.x

Just wondered how the discussion was going. Just a thought, are there many rich poets? Is there much to gain from stealing someone's poem? True success must be when your work enters the public psyche: 'stop all the clocks', 'that is forever England' etc...

To copyright a document - simply post a copy to yourself. As long as the stamp is franked, and the envelope still securely sealed - it is a legal record of ownership of any written work.

Cx

Please don't feel I was questioning your intentions - I've never shared a poem with anyone before joining WOL, it's been like 'coming out' as a poet and really, the people here are terrific. There'd be no point without a bit of challenge surely?

Apologies proffered. I honestly thought you were having a joke - it was the word for word quoting of Paul that led me to think it.
I have been insensitive - sorry.

I can't even begin to imagine what you have gone through Chris. It's brave of you to share your experiences. perhaps it's time to be brave and share your creativity aswell. This is the safest place to do it I can think of and I guarantee that this is the way to build positive relationships with the community here - something well worth the risk :)

Paul I must pick you up on a point here.

There is no such thing as 'copyrighting' your own work.

As soon as someone creates something, they own the copyright. Regardless of if it is registered they hold copyright. It can NEVER be given away. The only thing that can be given away is publishing/distribution/redistribution rights.

What you are talking about is REGISTERING that copyright, with some form of agency which does cost.

As for legal battles, well if you have good, strong evidence showing you wrote it before the act of theft (and these days original copy computer files can be useful in that aspect) it would be open/shut and damages to you, costs from the other side. I personally like christine's idea...it is a very cheap way of providing the closest to iron clad as you can get these days.


Chris, if you are able to come across the mersey on the 5th of October you would be VERY welcome at the new event I'm putting together and I would guarantee a sympathetic and friendly audience. The details are in the WOL gig guide, but if you need any more details please contact me. I can also say that even if I can't tell you directly I could give you a list of dates and contacts regarding the local scene.

I hope to see your stuff out there.

Regards,

Martin

There's a saying that I've seen in various forms attributed to various artistes which goes along the lines of 'Beggars borrow, geniuses steal'. I've also been told that Picasso once said ' the merely talented will imitate...a genius steals'.

To be an unpublished poet afraid of being plagiarised strikes me as being a bit egotistical. I'd be flattered if anyone nicked mine, it's not like they are going to get rich off them.

: )

Jx

PS Wow...you are a delicate flower! I don't detect much in the way of personal attack in my posting, more a vague musing...but I apologise for upsetting you so. I think I'll steer clear of critiquing your poems. I think you and I may be polar opposites....I don't mind what people say about me...but I get upset if they don't like my poems.

: )

How one digresses from the original thought that gave birth to the thread of discussion. Great isn't it?

The current trend here is similar to something I posted on the discussion site the otherday after reading some of the comments on some of the poetry that caught my eye. 'Has the time come that we need to start putting "inverted comma's" around our poetry and embellishing it with a bibliography'?

Let's swing those 'handbags at dawn' guys!

Must find some time today to read through this thread properly.

Hi Chris - not really sure how to get in touch with you since you don't have a profile yet. You left a comment on my profile. I am touched that you bothered to read my poetry - particularly after my crass comment. To read past poems you need to go to the bottom right hand corner of the current blog. The previous poem will be highlighted in blue. If you click on it it will take you back and you can go right back through a poets work that way. I'm glad you liked the one you read - that one meant quite a bit to me.
Most poets on this site have had some trauma in their lives, though perhaps not on the same scale as yourself. Emotional turmoil is often what brings us to poetry in the first place. We are therefore, on the whole, very understanding and supportive of others. This site, in some ways, mirrors life. You will find the good, the bad, the ugly and the mischevious....but above all, a home for everyone. I hope you join and enjoy it.
Isobel x

'Are you stalking me or am I stalking you Isobel?' - must be that the trauma of this whole seperation at birth thing!!! haha.

Have lost the whole thread of the comment I was going to make now, no doubt I will roll back later, like the bad penny when I have collected my thoughts and put them in some kind of intelligible order again.

I tried to leave a comment on your profile also Chris. Thank you for your inspiration.

Publish and be damned, urged Wellington.
Many a flower born to blush unseen and waste its sweetness on the desert air, said Gray, of the humble forefathers in their graves, in his Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard, and whom he described as "mute inglorious Miltons".
You can remain one of Gray's "mute inglorious Miltons", but you clearly want your work's sweetnesses to be recognised, which means exposing it to all that the world might offer and threaten.
As Chris Dawson points out, you de facto own the copyright ot your work. In fact, placing your work on here and clearly identifying yourself as author can serve to protect it.
It can act as proof of first publication, unless someone can come along and prove that they wrote it first.
Another reason to publish and be, er, praised, on Write Out Loud.

Erm actually Julian, whilst posting to a website can provide proof of first publication, it can also create problems.

I don't want to cause trouble here but I speak from experience here. The website I run (a good deal of you know it already) ran into trouble this time last year when I recieved a letter from a solicitors threatening legal action if I didn't take the poem in question down and label clearly that the person who provided me the poem was not the original author. Of course the claim was incorrect, but it caused a whole mess that took me near 3 weeks to clear up.

My point here is that, yes sites like this, and several others can help protect copyright, but it is by far the easiest type of theft too.

I should add that it is no reason not to perform or post your stuff. Everytime you do so you create evidence of your work. Also I know of no poet I have met in person who would dream of nicking someone elses work.

Hi Chris, I am very pleased you posted your work, I enjoyed 'O Fatalisitc Fortunes', there's something about the way you use language that is quite individual. I look forward to reading more of your work and getting a feel for your style.

Hi Chris, thanks for your comments about my work. I'm sorry I can't seem to find your blog yet so I hope you don't mind my replying here. I think you are right, sometimes I struggle to write what I think I should while other times, as in the case of King Crimson, I wrote what I simply enjoyed. I agree with you about poeple getting a little passionate on the Internet, I'm a pretty mellow bloke myself and try to see everyone's point of view but then where would poetry be without if a few of us weren't still mad, bad and dangerous to know? :) I wouldn't profess to know how to judge a poem's worth, I simply enjoy sharing the creativity of others, it's like the opportunity to visit inside another's head for a moment and have a shuffle around, surely that can never be a less than enjoyable experience?