<Deleted User> (5763)
Violence against Men
Is it acceptable in poetry to make light of, or to joke about, violence against men.
I maintain that violence against women is completely unacceptable.
And I can't see myself trivialising violence against women in my writing.
I get the impression that there would be hell to play in certain circles if I, a man, were to write a piece which trivialised violence against women - I would be made out to be the lowest of the low.
Yet it seems that, (depending on who you are), to suggest, to trivialise, or to incite violence against men through poetry is acceptable -is it?
I maintain that violence against women is completely unacceptable.
And I can't see myself trivialising violence against women in my writing.
I get the impression that there would be hell to play in certain circles if I, a man, were to write a piece which trivialised violence against women - I would be made out to be the lowest of the low.
Yet it seems that, (depending on who you are), to suggest, to trivialise, or to incite violence against men through poetry is acceptable -is it?
Fri, 20 Mar 2009 04:06 pm
I think that some women find it amusing and acceptable because women have been silenced and subjected to mistreatment from men for so long in history...
I do not believe in violence against anyone...
I do not believe in violence against anyone...
Fri, 20 Mar 2009 04:15 pm
Making light of something doesn't mean that you 'believe in it', advocate it, support it or anything else. There is absolutely nothing that can't or shouldn't be a subject for humour or art of any form.
If people try to use poetry, or any other art form, to further their obnoxious political views or as a means of conveying prejudice, inciting hatred or violence and so on they should be criticised for what they do and have their unpleasantness exposed. In extreme cases of incitement there could even be a crime committed.
It is also important to remember that if you are seen to be a person who has a position more privileged than the person or group subjected to your humour you may be seen as bullying. As with everything if you do good work and you are a decent person you will produce something worthwhile. It is horrible that anyone should be afraid of tackling subjects whether it is in a humorous way or not.
If people try to use poetry, or any other art form, to further their obnoxious political views or as a means of conveying prejudice, inciting hatred or violence and so on they should be criticised for what they do and have their unpleasantness exposed. In extreme cases of incitement there could even be a crime committed.
It is also important to remember that if you are seen to be a person who has a position more privileged than the person or group subjected to your humour you may be seen as bullying. As with everything if you do good work and you are a decent person you will produce something worthwhile. It is horrible that anyone should be afraid of tackling subjects whether it is in a humorous way or not.
Fri, 20 Mar 2009 04:41 pm
<Deleted User> (5763)
Hello Francine,and Malpoet.
I ought to apologise; I said that I couldn't see myself trivialising violence against women. I have in fact written a Limerick involving a male MP chucking a female MP into Loch Ness, rather disingenuous of me !
That said, I agree with what you say Malpoet, and I am sympathetic with what you say Francine. I was being a little provocative with my question; I do realise that there is a context in which we write, and that I ought to employ a healthy dose of good humour, and not be too touchy, or censorious.
Having said that, I wish some of us would also do likewise !
I ought to apologise; I said that I couldn't see myself trivialising violence against women. I have in fact written a Limerick involving a male MP chucking a female MP into Loch Ness, rather disingenuous of me !
That said, I agree with what you say Malpoet, and I am sympathetic with what you say Francine. I was being a little provocative with my question; I do realise that there is a context in which we write, and that I ought to employ a healthy dose of good humour, and not be too touchy, or censorious.
Having said that, I wish some of us would also do likewise !
Fri, 20 Mar 2009 05:20 pm
No DECENT man would ever hit a woman - even if she rains blows down on his head. That has happened to me; I have been the victim of female-on-male domestic violence. Statistically, women hitting men is not a small problem - though the violence of men against women is substantially a bigger one.
No-one - male or female - should have to endure violent attack, though most of us will at some point in our lives. From a male point of view (well, from my point of view, anyway) a man is more of a man if he eschews violence totally; there are, after all, other ways to deal with one's problems / frustrations.
It is important to learn how "to be a man", and that is not without difficulty in a society which has become feminised, where tradtitional families are breaking down, and where there is a nasty man-hating culture starting to develop.
Being a man, being a woman, being human, never was easy. Being a good man (and, by the way, being a good man has nothing to do with sexuality; gay, straight, bi we should all try to be good men) has got harder.
Men need help. Society as a whole would benefit if there were to be a strong Men's Liberation Movement in our country.
No-one - male or female - should have to endure violent attack, though most of us will at some point in our lives. From a male point of view (well, from my point of view, anyway) a man is more of a man if he eschews violence totally; there are, after all, other ways to deal with one's problems / frustrations.
It is important to learn how "to be a man", and that is not without difficulty in a society which has become feminised, where tradtitional families are breaking down, and where there is a nasty man-hating culture starting to develop.
Being a man, being a woman, being human, never was easy. Being a good man (and, by the way, being a good man has nothing to do with sexuality; gay, straight, bi we should all try to be good men) has got harder.
Men need help. Society as a whole would benefit if there were to be a strong Men's Liberation Movement in our country.
Sat, 21 Mar 2009 08:58 am
<Deleted User> (5763)
There is very little I can disagree with in your post Steve.
But I am genuinely confused about what we mean when we use words such as 'feminised society'.
I would prefer to distance myself from the bullying, agressive stereotypes portrayed as being typically male in male magazines, and in programmes such as 'Top Gear' which incite agressive, and violent (...yes violent), and destructive behaviour amongst young drivers.
I think it is a great injustice towards men that many talented and dedicated individuals are put off teaching and childcare jobs because they are made to feel uncomfortable about the fact that they are men, ie that they are assumed to be child abusers.
Men are, I believe being emasculated, by a bullying culture amongst some women, which is promoted by politicians as and when it suits their purpose.
I believe that we all (men and women) ought to work together to redress the wrong we have committed, however I percieve that there is still a very vocal element of the female population which seeks to blame ALL men for the undoubted injustices and crimes committed against women in the past.
Is it not a sad indictment on our so-called 'modern, civilised ' society that I know of a new women's and childen's refuge which has just opened, and which is now full to the gunwales ?
I would say that we now need to get rid of radio programmes such as Women's Hour, which seem dominated by a coterie of middle class, navel gazers, and that we should have a programme devoted equally to the interests of men and women.
I am in cautious agreement with you that we should have a Men's Liberation movement, but it ought to be, in the first instance, one which liberates us men from the stereotypes such as the Jeremy Clarksons of this world, which are propagated by a very powerful clique of vested interests, stereotypes which are siezed upon by some women's goups.
But I am genuinely confused about what we mean when we use words such as 'feminised society'.
I would prefer to distance myself from the bullying, agressive stereotypes portrayed as being typically male in male magazines, and in programmes such as 'Top Gear' which incite agressive, and violent (...yes violent), and destructive behaviour amongst young drivers.
I think it is a great injustice towards men that many talented and dedicated individuals are put off teaching and childcare jobs because they are made to feel uncomfortable about the fact that they are men, ie that they are assumed to be child abusers.
Men are, I believe being emasculated, by a bullying culture amongst some women, which is promoted by politicians as and when it suits their purpose.
I believe that we all (men and women) ought to work together to redress the wrong we have committed, however I percieve that there is still a very vocal element of the female population which seeks to blame ALL men for the undoubted injustices and crimes committed against women in the past.
Is it not a sad indictment on our so-called 'modern, civilised ' society that I know of a new women's and childen's refuge which has just opened, and which is now full to the gunwales ?
I would say that we now need to get rid of radio programmes such as Women's Hour, which seem dominated by a coterie of middle class, navel gazers, and that we should have a programme devoted equally to the interests of men and women.
I am in cautious agreement with you that we should have a Men's Liberation movement, but it ought to be, in the first instance, one which liberates us men from the stereotypes such as the Jeremy Clarksons of this world, which are propagated by a very powerful clique of vested interests, stereotypes which are siezed upon by some women's goups.
Sat, 21 Mar 2009 09:48 am
Hi Bill,
By 'feminised society' (and it is a clumsy term, I admit) I mean the strong subtext running through the media and liberal society that women are "good" and men are "bad".
I don't actually mind the antics of Jermey Clarkson and co on Top Gear; in some ways I think they are a refreshing antitode to all the touchy-feely, politically correct crap that goes on elswhere on the BBC and in mainstream media.
What I really can't stand are lads mags such as Nuts and Loaded etc. which do their best to keep men stupid by pumping out soft porn images and pretending that life for men is only about going to the gym, body fascism, cars and sport. What bollox!
I too think it is s shame and "an injustice towards men that many talented and dedicated individuals are put off teaching and childcare jobs because they are made to feel uncomfortable about the fact that they are men, ie that they are assumed to be child abusers". Thoroughly agree with you on that. That is bad for men and it is bad for children who are receiving schooling in their formative years without any good male role models.
Those same children often these days also have no male role models at home. No wonder domestic abuse and violence is such a problem. The old values were there for a reason.
You often hear it said that men are not in touch with their emotions and poor at expressing them, compared to women. Again, this is not what I have found. My male friends are very sensitive and supportive (errr, well maybe one or two of them aren't, but I think the same could be said of my women friends).
Oh bloody hell ... I can feel a discussion subject coming up ... 'who are the better poets: men or women?' But I'm not going to start that. I'm even gonna take part in it.
By 'feminised society' (and it is a clumsy term, I admit) I mean the strong subtext running through the media and liberal society that women are "good" and men are "bad".
I don't actually mind the antics of Jermey Clarkson and co on Top Gear; in some ways I think they are a refreshing antitode to all the touchy-feely, politically correct crap that goes on elswhere on the BBC and in mainstream media.
What I really can't stand are lads mags such as Nuts and Loaded etc. which do their best to keep men stupid by pumping out soft porn images and pretending that life for men is only about going to the gym, body fascism, cars and sport. What bollox!
I too think it is s shame and "an injustice towards men that many talented and dedicated individuals are put off teaching and childcare jobs because they are made to feel uncomfortable about the fact that they are men, ie that they are assumed to be child abusers". Thoroughly agree with you on that. That is bad for men and it is bad for children who are receiving schooling in their formative years without any good male role models.
Those same children often these days also have no male role models at home. No wonder domestic abuse and violence is such a problem. The old values were there for a reason.
You often hear it said that men are not in touch with their emotions and poor at expressing them, compared to women. Again, this is not what I have found. My male friends are very sensitive and supportive (errr, well maybe one or two of them aren't, but I think the same could be said of my women friends).
Oh bloody hell ... I can feel a discussion subject coming up ... 'who are the better poets: men or women?' But I'm not going to start that. I'm even gonna take part in it.
Sat, 21 Mar 2009 10:32 am
A men's liberation movement is an absolutely barking idea. We have nothing from which we need to be liberated other than our own fears or feelings of inadequacy. 'Men' simply do not exist as a single body of people with a set of men's objectives or men's needs. This is just as true of women. There is no 'population of women' with a fixed set of needs.
Men and women are most definitely different I am very glad to say. Hormones, evolution, socialisation and much else apart from genitalia result in huge differences and needs. However, there is no simple male/female dichotomy. There is a whole continuum from the most extreme of male characteristics to ultra femininity. Our personalities are made up of these gender characteristics plus our other attributes. The result is that we are individually unique.
HIstorically women have faced disadvantages in our society that are now being corrected and in a few more generations one hopes that it will be achieved. The women's liberation movement was a silly offshoot of revolutionary 60's politics that probably had very little impact on the changes that have occurred and are continuing. Programmes like Woman's Hour are a complete irrelevance. If you don't like it don't listen. Without audience it will disappear.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with people choosing to gather in their own gender any more than than there is a problem about there being clubs (political parties) to which only conservatives, scoialists, etc. may belong. The WI can carry on being women only as long as it likes and there should not be attempts to prevent men only associations.
Incidentally there should not be any prevention of cigar smokers establishments or whatever other followers of private adult indulgence may wish to pursue. We do nothing to eradicate human failings like violence or discrimination by us or our governments trying ever more to intrude into the attitudes or behaviour of individuals.
People who do violence to others should be dealt with by proper legal process. It doesn't matter whether the violent person is male or female and it is irrelevant whether the violence happens in the home or out of it or in a relationship or not.
This is a poetry site and to get back to the original question ther is no reason why we should not write about absolutely anything. If my poems include eating babies or celebrate the roasting of missionaries it should not be assumed that these are my main activities in life and judge me by that. One of the reasons that some of us engage in our art is to lighten up.
Hairy androgyne
Men and women are most definitely different I am very glad to say. Hormones, evolution, socialisation and much else apart from genitalia result in huge differences and needs. However, there is no simple male/female dichotomy. There is a whole continuum from the most extreme of male characteristics to ultra femininity. Our personalities are made up of these gender characteristics plus our other attributes. The result is that we are individually unique.
HIstorically women have faced disadvantages in our society that are now being corrected and in a few more generations one hopes that it will be achieved. The women's liberation movement was a silly offshoot of revolutionary 60's politics that probably had very little impact on the changes that have occurred and are continuing. Programmes like Woman's Hour are a complete irrelevance. If you don't like it don't listen. Without audience it will disappear.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with people choosing to gather in their own gender any more than than there is a problem about there being clubs (political parties) to which only conservatives, scoialists, etc. may belong. The WI can carry on being women only as long as it likes and there should not be attempts to prevent men only associations.
Incidentally there should not be any prevention of cigar smokers establishments or whatever other followers of private adult indulgence may wish to pursue. We do nothing to eradicate human failings like violence or discrimination by us or our governments trying ever more to intrude into the attitudes or behaviour of individuals.
People who do violence to others should be dealt with by proper legal process. It doesn't matter whether the violent person is male or female and it is irrelevant whether the violence happens in the home or out of it or in a relationship or not.
This is a poetry site and to get back to the original question ther is no reason why we should not write about absolutely anything. If my poems include eating babies or celebrate the roasting of missionaries it should not be assumed that these are my main activities in life and judge me by that. One of the reasons that some of us engage in our art is to lighten up.
Hairy androgyne
Sat, 21 Mar 2009 10:55 am
<Deleted User> (7790)
You're all going to be ladies, anyway, due to the amount of oestrogen in drinking water. It must get into the rain, too. Then it's sucked up into your five a day. Five a day? That's you getting five times closer to being ladies. The government, who recommended five a day in the first place, wants you all to be ladies because ladies haven't got as hard a punch. And we ladies, we're just more of a lady incrementally with each portion of fruit/veg/water. Yes, never mind three times a lady, we're more lady than can be currently factored. Besides, you were all girls in the womb before a chunk of your DNA dropped off. So violence doesn't make sense.
Sun, 22 Mar 2009 07:21 pm
The WC Fields solution to this problem was correct. I am sure that distillation and fermentation will remove any nasty feminine hormonals from the liquids real men consume.
Sun, 22 Mar 2009 07:47 pm