Sat 21st Jan 2012 23:21
I agree with your post A.E. I see different forms of Poetry in different places. It's doing well, in that people from all areas, still use it to express themselves. Poetry always finds a way to be there, whether people see it or not. But it is a shame, that there are different factions, like so many things, that don't seem to work well together. IF people allow poetry to be open, to all, and to new ideas. That lends to people getting involved i.e. creative, and showing poetry's worth for us all, young and old. I think that for many people, the poetry society is not something they feel a part of.
Isobel, as regards to poetry in Schools, it was the same when I was at school. I think when it comes to schools. Teachers should not be to harsh on themselves not having enough understanding themselves. Because like any art at a young age. Its about letting creativity flow. And see where it takes you. You give children a paint brush, and a general guide. Teaching poetry? its like teaching someone to be an artist. Lets, let children of all ages, show us, what they feel in writing poetry or in other ways. I think allot of strict form poetry people might be surprised at what happens.
At grass roots levels, I see poetry doing well. With lots of people using it, and performing still. I think that some well known Poetry orgs and publications, could show themselves to be more inclusive to more poets, that think outside the box. Too many still treat poetry as a certain kind of form. Which puts many off.
A great article, because as you see in the thread, we all ask questions and have an opinion.
Comment is about The Write Out Loud interview: Fiona Sampson (article)
Original item by Greg Freeman
Sat 21st Jan 2012 22:59
Good interview with lots of points to pick up on. I have trouble reconciling this -
"Poems should be experiential. Young people do not have to be educated to the music they love - choosing it is tribal, part of their self-definition. For the few teenagers who do find poetry for themselves, it may be equally part of the self, but this happens much less often."
- with this:
"I do believe that in schools everyone should be taught the canon. It is not elitist to teach that certain writers can be thought of as amazing - to present that as a fact."
My experience of the kind of person who is usually sweepingly dismissive of contemporary poetry is that they're someone who was taught the canon, who was taught the 'fact' that a particular group of writers are amazing. Poetry doesn't seem to form part of their 'self' in the way Sampson talks of teenagers discovering music; instead, they understand it as a system of specific techniques that modern writers have abandoned. Something has gone wrong when the equation in their minds seems to be: "Wordsworth is a great poet + Wordsworth rhymes = great poetry must rhyme."
Surely we can teach poetry not apologetically, not coyly, but still leave children room to discover their real value themselves, rather than prescribing what is 'amazing'?
Sat 21st Jan 2012 22:23
Enjoyed this very much, Anthony.
Comment is about bay 3 (blog)
Original item by Anthony Emmerson
Sat 21st Jan 2012 22:06
Am I too late then to say HAPPY BIRTHDAY, STEF??!
Comment is about Crumbling (blog)
Original item by Patricia and Stefan Wilde
Sat 21st Jan 2012 22:05
Good one, Patricia. I expect lots of us will be able to identify with this - I'm always giving myself strong talks that don't amount to much!
Comment is about Practising the art of self possession (blog)
John F Keane
Sat 21st Jan 2012 21:00
MC, thanks for your comment.
Remain in light...
Comment is about M.C. Newberry (Poet profile)
Original item by M.C. Newberry
Rob A Mackenzie
Sat 21st Jan 2012 20:47
Isobel, yes, I wasn't meaning to be narrow in a conception of poetry. John Burnside's poetry clearly has an introspective side to it, but touches on significant themes that go beyond himself. The same, in very different ways, with Alice Oswald or Mark Ford. Comic poetry, at its best, riffs on important things (just as the best comedy tends to do). I think no poet can escape a moral role though. If you are human, who you are and what you do and say (or don't do or say) has moral implications. Poets are no different, even if they would like to be.
Sat 21st Jan 2012 20:41
Fascinating. And well written. Got me googling and opened up a new world. Thank you.
Comment is about Rooftops (for Bruno Cordati) (blog)
Sat 21st Jan 2012 20:37
Is Joy going to have a go at Liverpool again, cos if she is.......
Only joking. Planning to be there and looking forward to it
Comment is about ThePoetry Spoke Open Mic January- Guests Joy France- Dave Gilbey (blog)
Original item by Chris Co
Sat 21st Jan 2012 20:35
What a fascinating thread. I agree with what Izz says about variety and choice, and also most of what Fiona says. I would want to qualify her view that poetry is mostly a matter of sound, music and rhythm and is an 'out loud' form. That is probably true of the great majority of what most people receive as the best poetry. But all sorts of things are put into all sorts of words and have the label 'poetry' attached to them, and if someone else receives it as such and likes it, then who are we to gainsay them? A friend doing a philosophy masters degree insisted we couldn't, at any rate, and was persuasive.
Eliza's article (for which many thanks Rob) is very moving. All Europe should be aware of Lampedusa. I've been a trustee of Asylum Link Merseyside for 9 years and help in an English class every week. The class has had a Libyan and a Tunisian recently. In class, we never ask people how they came to the UK, leaving that to the caseworkers, but I will certainly look at them differently next week.
Sat 21st Jan 2012 20:17
good to catch up with you too C
thanks for your time x
Comment is about Cynthia Buell Thomas (Poet profile)
Original item by Cynthia Buell Thomas
Sat 21st Jan 2012 20:15
many thanks x
Comment is about Laura (Poet profile)
Original item by Laura
Sat 21st Jan 2012 20:13
many thanks Ray
Comment is about (Poet profile)
many thanks Rachel x
Sat 21st Jan 2012 20:12
Hi G - thanks for your time and comment
Comment is about Gray Nicholls (Poet profile)
Original item by Gray Nicholls
Sat 21st Jan 2012 19:59
That is a very moving article Rob and an interesting angle you've chosen to consider. More reading might lead to a greater connection with humanity, the bigger picture - a move away from introspection - which many poets are accused of.
Personally, I don't think anyone can say what poets should and shouldn't write about or whether they should or shouldn't have a moral role. Variety is the spice of life. I love to be moved by poetry - I like poetry that looks beyond the self - but if every poem I read was of the same ilk, I would tire of it. I also like the light hearted, the comic, and yes the cathartic - if it is written well and not overly self indulgent.
Most people could do with reading more. If you want to write to a particular form, you can't go wrong by studying that form - and the masters of that form - otherwise it's too easy to get it wrong.
Sat 21st Jan 2012 19:24
Interesting interview and comments. I was especially interested in what Fiona says on voice and music. People are often advised to "find their voice" but that can often be very limiting. Once you've think you've found the voice, it's too easy just to stick with it. That might explain why some people seem to write the same kind of poem over and over again.
I agree that music is vital and that it's not just about rhyme or meter, but the phrase "a kind of grammatical logic" doesn't exactly capture it either! I wish she had expanded on what she menat by that. On the other hand, it's maybe impossible to deal with a subject as big as this in a blog interview.
On the question of westernisation, I'm sure that we do have less ability to concentrate and to go deep these days. On the other hand, it does provide an opportunity for poets, something to react to or (sometimes) to react against. I was thinking about this when reading the fantastic article in this month's 'Poetry' magazine by Eliza Griswold - http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/article/243226. Towards the end, she writes, "I think of what Wallace Stevens says in 'The Necessary Angel'. A poet has no moral role. A poet has to use imagination to press back against the violence of reality. I don’t agree. He also wrote that reality was growing more insistent, more violent. I agree with that." She's talking about more sinister moral and physical violence than generally exists in popular UK culture, of course, but the question of a poet's moral role can no longer be brushed aside by poets.
As for the small amount of readers compared to the large amount of writers, I guess it has been so for a very long time. I do wish people would read more. It's vital to support magazines, poets and publishers as well as to pick up ideas and techniques for one's own work.
Sat 21st Jan 2012 18:12
Anthony - I do love your presence on WOL - you make me laugh. I think you could take Jeremy Paxman on when it comes to grasping the nettle...
I love your question though! Maybe we should politicise the Poetry Society - get it to demonstrate and lobby.
Suggested slogans for the placards:-
'MORE CREATIVE WRITING ON THE NATIONAL CURRICULUM'
'POETRY FOR ALL'
You'd have to swell the ranks of the poetry society to get it to work though. Maybe having no fees to join might help. Or help for those on benefit/tax credits...
Sat 21st Jan 2012 17:51
enjoyed this Josh in particular the first stanza..but top stuff
Comment is about This Night We Share A Dream (blog)
Original item by Joshua Van-Cook
Sat 21st Jan 2012 17:50
Good to have you on board. Enjoyed reading your work - especially "Eye of the Iron." Great to hear a political voice too. Looking forward to more.
Comment is about Solomon Scribble (Poet profile)
Original item by Solomon Scribble
Sat 21st Jan 2012 17:49
nice stuff, Kealan.. did you write the original translation too?
Comment is about Sound Translations (blog)
Original item by Kealan Coady
Sat 21st Jan 2012 17:46
excellent stuff.. Coastlines and laughter is such a great title
Comment is about Coastlines and laughter (blog)
Sat 21st Jan 2012 17:29
A fantastic poem Steve. I'm thinking of getting a dog - this might just tip me over into getting one! (Always been a cat person till now.) I love the photo - she looks a very loveable girl! I think you are a very good poet btw.
Comment is about A Dog's Life (blog)
Original item by STEVE RUDD
Sat 21st Jan 2012 17:18
Hi Rory - welcome to WOL. And long live the dream!
Comment is about Rory Peace (Poet profile)
Original item by Rory Peace
Sat 21st Jan 2012 16:03
Thanks for your comments everyone and an interesting discussion following.
Sat 21st Jan 2012 15:40
Interesting interview, and critical (rightly so) on several areas. The question I would like to have asked is:
"What, are both Poetry Review and The Poetry Society doing in order to involve those aspects of society who feel disenfranchised by poetry?
From what I've read of Poetry Review it is hardly an "all embracing" publication, and I hazard a guess that its contents would do little to inspire those on the outside.
The Poetry Society? Grand name which reeks of authority - but whose Poetry Society? It certainly doesn't seem as if it's for all poets; maybe just those who've "made it."
Sat 21st Jan 2012 15:01
An imaginative (plus!) take on the subject.
I particularly like the concluding lines. The
imagery is striking elsewhere too. Another fine contribution.
Comment is about THE NIGHT BATTLE (blog)
Sat 21st Jan 2012 14:35
oh i like this one a lot
Comment is about The audience (photo)
Sat 21st Jan 2012 14:11
Sadly no - creative writing is taking a back seat even in primary school - from my experience anyway - and I am a teaching assistant....
I think I was very fortunate in the period I went to school. Drama - ad lib drama - was very much flavour of the day with young forward thinking teachers. I just loved it. I was actually shy by nature, but could lose myself on a stage - be anyone I wanted to be. I'm not much different now :)
Charlotte, I'd agree that writing any type of formally structured poety is a useful exercise in discipline. It's just that often the essence of the form is lost, by poets just looking at a syllable count. Often the essence of what the poet is trying to say is also lost - wrapped in chains that shouldn't be there. It obviously depends on the poet and the poem. Some do everything brilliantly.
Sat 21st Jan 2012 13:18
@Isobel, it's funny, 'cause my strongest memories of creative writing in schools was in primary schools. i used to love it. i had it in my head that this level of education would still have the highest level of encouragement to participate in creative writing but i guess not anymore. i find that pretty sad.
i did more about persuasive texts in secondary, and now i'm in college we do a nice variety.
i like the haiku as a form. it forces you to think in a disciplined way about the words you use.
Sat 21st Jan 2012 12:13
Sat 21st Jan 2012 12:09
Enjoyable night Graham
Review is about Poets Corner on 17 Jan 2012 (Event)
Sat 21st Jan 2012 11:58
Hello all poets who came to 'Poets Corner' last Tuesday 17 January (and again thank you for coming)...Joy France has loaded all 'pics' taken by us on the night, as their are quite a few, please just click on the link to WOL and select your own pic/s and then click on Facebook/Share and it will be sent to your own fb page.
I am doing it this way folks as there were lots of pics and it can take up 'loads' of space on our Facebook page so once again please just click on the link on 'Poets Corner' to WOL Galleries and happy viewing!
I must say we had a handsome bunch of poets last Tuesday! lol Kind Regards to you all - (see you on the 21 Feb) Graham and Stella
Sat 21st Jan 2012 11:47
A very interesting take on the subject. A very creative use of language. "Simmoom" has a lovely sonority. You might want to look at "Defololiate" though - slow picked leaves maybe? :)
Sat 21st Jan 2012 11:46
Anne...Re the subtitle:I used to perform it with the joke that it was written before `Viagra and the Pill had spoiledthe whole bloody shennanigan by casualising it`But wasn`t going to blog that bit. But I`d just read a report that large sections of Japan`s youth were actually becoming dis-interested in sex and began to get the horrible fear that any youngster under the age of forty might not even `get` what the poem was about.But generally you`re right - so it`s off.
Sat 21st Jan 2012 02:06
John, you are the only man I know who can rhyme clitoris with Doris. Well done. Win x
Comment is about Clitoris (blog)
Original item by John Coopey
Sat 21st Jan 2012 01:53
That broach I lent you ... I want it back.
Comment is about jason t richardson (Poet profile)
Original item by jason t richardson
Sat 21st Jan 2012 01:14
Hi Antony, good to see an actual pic of you. Good luck with your words. Enjoyed reading some of your samples again tonight. Win x
Comment is about Antony Owen (Poet profile)
Original item by Antony Owen
Sat 21st Jan 2012 00:23
Enjoyed this Steve - very evocative - you have a real feeling for words. I also liked your profile poems especially Skiddaw. Skiddaw gave me what remains a supreme moment on the hills, many years ago. The poem was perfect
Fri 20th Jan 2012 23:58
I enjoyed reading this - great questions and interesting responses - particularly relating to poetry in schools.
I currently work in a primary school and have children at all levels in the education system. What strikes me now is the fact that creative writing ceases after primary level - and even there it is much reduced, from what I remember when I was at school. There is much more emphasis now on 'persuasive writing', and writing to inform; writing leaflets, instructions etc. Believe me, it is the most tedious exercise imaginable writing out instructions on how to get ready for P.E....
How can we expect our children to engage with poetry when they are not having a go for themselves - experiencing first hand the fun that can be had with language?
On that score, I'd agree also in the dumbing down of society - I don't reckon a TV and playstation in every bedroom helps much! I've even heard that the abbreviation gr8 is acceptable in certain english exams, where spelling isn't deemed important.
I would agree about Haiku also. Most english examples of it are pretty poor - just carving up of syllables really.
Not sure I completely agree with the response to page/performance poetry. Clearly, all poetry can be performed, just as all poetry can be read. Certain types of poetry work better on page than stage though and visa versa.
Think that's me done. Great interview - I enjoyed.
Fri 20th Jan 2012 22:57
I enjoyed the poem, even though I don't like dogs. Alas, my wife does. The last couplet is good, a fitting end.
Fri 20th Jan 2012 22:36
I really enjoyed Gonaways - it connected with something in me. I've moved around more than I'd have liked and would agree that you can never go back to the person you were - the house doesn't exist any more. I really love the way you express that.
Enjoyed A Deadman Speaks to his Daughter - that's how I'd like to imagine it.
Comment is about STEVE RUDD (Poet profile)
Fri 20th Jan 2012 22:09
Good for you, Isobel. She sounds like a great dog. If you don't want her, we'll have her.
Thanks MC. Let's hope, eh?
Fri 20th Jan 2012 21:49
What a lovely poem Steve. Honest and down to earth - right up my street.
We've just taken on an orphaned dog - a long haired 10yr old border collie with smelly breath and hair that gets everywhere. I'd been fighting having a dog for years and when we first got it I was relieved that I wouldn't have to look after it beyond 5-8 years. Now that fact really worries me, because she's bonded big time with everyone - completed the family in fact. So I can understand in small part, how you must feel.
Fri 20th Jan 2012 21:47
Hara Willow from Poets a'Hoy of Hoylake relaxing after her 2nd (Yes 2nd Win) at Poets Corner Tuesday Night...Well Done You!
Comment is about Hara Willow - Winner (photo)
Fri 20th Jan 2012 21:34
My sister who has kept. loved and lost many dogs would know your feelings. Loss can but
point the way to the chance for another to enjoy a "dog's life", to make a sad owner a glad owner once again.
Fri 20th Jan 2012 21:28
Provocative - and entertaining. A welcome
combination. As a versifier, I raise my pen
Comment is about Eyes On A Winter Page (blog)
Original item by Ian Gant
Fri 20th Jan 2012 20:19
Thanks, Steve, that's nice of you. I'd guess about 10-20% of my stuff is publishable - a few poems have been published without me actively seeking it out.But it's not a big deal for me. If I'm to go to the trouble of sending off poems and risking rejection I'd rather enter a poetry competition now and again - at least there's a tangible reward and I'm in profit so far!I'm also mindful of the company I keep - rather publicans and sinners than earnest poetry types.As for cyberspace, isn't that where it's at? Anyway, thanks for cheering me up. When are you gonna be published?
Fri 20th Jan 2012 19:43
Well done Kealan on your joint 1st place in WOL comp.
Comment is about Kealan Coady (Poet profile)
Fri 20th Jan 2012 19:37
Thanks Lynn for your comments on My Feotal Distress.
Comment is about Lynn Dye (Poet profile)
Original item by Lynn Dye
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